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Morals Without God

I don't agree with this generalization either but it's off topic so I'm not too interested in debating it.

Fair enough. I think we would argue about something really really contingent either way, and maybe if we could talk face to face the misunderstandin would be no more.
So wise choice, man. :)

Religious dogma is written down. Then it is edited thru time to fit the culture it is practiced in. Culture molds religion to fit its needs.

Historically that is very true. Just look at the bible and how passages written in different time support very different kinds of moral standards.
 
Off the cuff, ~95% of the people in US prisons claim to be religious. Avowed atheists make up about 1%. If being religulous gives you a stronger moral framework than being atheistic you would see different number.

Question 1: Where they "religious" before entering the justice system, or was it something that occured afterwards.

Question 2: Are they "religious" because their (grand)parents were and they went to some form of worship as a kid, or were they genuinely following their religion at the time of their entering the Justice system.

Esentially, unless you can show that 95% of people in prison were actively following a religion at the time they commited the crime that got them incarserated, your figures are pointless.
 
Question 1: Where they "religious" before entering the justice system, or was it something that occured afterwards.

Question 2: Are they "religious" because their (grand)parents were and they went to some form of worship as a kid, or were they genuinely following their religion at the time of their entering the Justice system.

Esentially, unless you can show that 95% of people in prison were actively following a religion at the time they commited the crime that got them incarserated, your figures are pointless.

"actively following"? I like that. By that criteria the US is an atheistic country. Because people sure don't "actively follow" the tenets of Christianity here.

As for the rest, have fun and I hope you find some to argue that point with. I have drying paint to watch.
 
Really? What do you think would happen if law and order ended in the US tomorrow? Everyone would carry on happy and joyously together? Personally I think the country would disolve into waring factions based on race and other personality traits just like Iraq, Kosov, Bosnia, Somalia, Rwanda, Haiti, etc.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to argue here. I don't see how any of this contradicts what I've been saying in the slightest.

I do find it perplexing how men in a modern society still think of guns or fighting as a solution to disagreements. But really, the actual amount of violence in the majority of societies amounts to a tiny fraction of most peoples' interactions.

Yes, most people don't habitually engage in violence within an established society during times of peace... to other people of the same group. If you look at how people behave during times of war, you see an entirely different picture. Likewise, people don't seem to have any problem doing absolutely terrible things to people who look or act a little different than they do. By heart, humans are still the same animals they were thousands of years ago.
 
"actively following"? I like that. By that criteria the US is an atheistic country. Because people sure don't "actively follow" the tenets of Christianity here.

I'd actually agree with you there. People aren't Christian because they go to a Church once a year (or even a week), or because their parents (or grandparents were), or because they tick a box on a census form. Being a Christian is about making an active decision to act and live by the tenets of Christianity. Keep in mind Matt 7:13-23. Not all that call themselves Christian are. Jesus said his followers were those "everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them..." James, his half-brother and later a leader in the Jeruselem Church, likewise stated that "Faith without works is dead."

It's quite clear bibilically, that for one to be a Christian, one has to actually act like it.
 
I can only interpret that as having missed the point of my post, particularly the "social evolution" part. I actually see nothing in your response that addresses anything I said, so maybe I needed to use more words.
Your statement is a gross oversimplification of how genes are propagated and amplified within a population. :
If behaviors like that can be passed on genetically, then it makes perfect sense to believe that they would be passed on, doesn't it? It seems to me that a behavior that causes people to associate in groups and do things to benefit the group ultimately insures that more members of the group will pass on their genes than would loners.

It's fine to discuss this stuff in these oversimplified terms. But it is hard for me to do so because it isn't specific enough about how things really work.

You are talking about "behaviors" being passed on. I have been talking about traits that affect behavior. You speak of those behaviors most likely to be selected. I am talking about the tails of the bell curve, the traits that get passed along but aren't found in the majority of the population. I mentioned brain damage, that isn't even genetic.

We just aren't on the same page. It's not a bad thing. It just is.
 
I'd actually agree with you there. People aren't Christian because they go to a Church once a year (or even a week), or because their parents (or grandparents were), or because they tick a box on a census form. Being a Christian is about making an active decision to act and live by the tenets of Christianity. Keep in mind Matt 7:13-23. Not all that call themselves Christian are. Jesus said his followers were those "everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them..." James, his half-brother and later a leader in the Jeruselem Church, likewise stated that "Faith without works is dead."

It's quite clear bibilically, that for one to be a Christian, one has to actually act like it.

A local bar got a request from the church across the street asking that their patrons not park in the church lot on Sunday mornings. It seems that people were parking at the church and walking across the street, at 9 AM on Sunday morning, presumably so people would think they were in church and not boozing for breakfast.

That's Christianity in America, folks.
 
Question 1: Where they "religious" before entering the justice system, or was it something that occured afterwards.

Question 2: Are they "religious" because their (grand)parents were and they went to some form of worship as a kid, or were they genuinely following their religion at the time of their entering the Justice system.

Esentially, unless you can show that 95% of people in prison were actively following a religion at the time they commited the crime that got them incarserated, your figures are pointless.

A. But at that point, that comforting blanket utterly fails and comes apart.

How do you tell if your neighbour is really a religious guy or just wants to be seen at church on Sunday? The phenomenon of the crooked merchant who goes to church just because being seen there makes it easier to swindle the rest of the village the rest of the week, is for example mentioned off the top of my head even in a 19'th century novel. It's not a new phenomenon.

Any kind of feeling safer for knowing that that neighbour is actually getting any morals from there, would need one to know what's actually in the head of said neighbour, and becomes basically useless if we can't do that. And, really, we can't.

B. In the same vein, it becomes a claim that's utterly non-falsifiable, and really no better than, say, "The Pharaoh makes the sun rise and the Nile flow."

C. Actually, I'd expect religion to actually make it worse. And I don't just mean the bronze-age precepts inciting to violence, rape, bad parenting, etc.

According to one study, most people seem to work by a sort of keeping the balance scheme. For every good thing they do, they bend the rules a bit somewhere else, and the more important they think they are, the more they bend the rules to their favour too. Think sorta giving yourself your own Christmas present for being a good boy. Sorta.

Or in reverse, basically why people feeling guilty about something go give a few bucks to a few charity, and then don't feel guilty any more. 'Cause, you know, one wrong and one right cancel each other out. Suddenly whatever they did it's no longer a wrong any more, or at any rate no use to think about it any more.

One provable effect for example is that people who drive hybrids, then proceed to break more of the traffic rules at the wheel. They did something as big as saving the planet, they don't exactly expect the rest of the planet to give them a reward for it, so basically they give themselves a bit of exemption from the rules as a reward.

I don't see why that wouldn't apply to religion too. If someone is actually convinced that he's that important (even God particularly loves him and his sect), and he's doing that much of a service to the world (e.g., by witnessing around or whatever), I'd actually expect them to be worse people the rest of the time. Just because of that human nature of keeping the balance.

And by "worse" I don't mean they'd go kill someone, but really, worse than they'd have been without that artificial sense of importance and service done to the world. For each person it's a different point.
 
A local bar got a request from the church across the street asking that their patrons not park in the church lot on Sunday mornings. It seems that people were parking at the church and walking across the street, at 9 AM on Sunday morning, presumably so people would think they were in church and not boozing for breakfast.

That's Christianity in America, folks.

Yeah, selfish bastards, not wanting people taking up their parking spaces!
 
Yeah, selfish bastards, not wanting people taking up their parking spaces!

The funny thing is, after the "move", there were more free spaces than the drinkers had taken up. If the churchies had been smart they'd have allowed the parking so the "herding instinct" would have had a chance to work. As it is now, the place just looks pathetic on Sunday morning.
 
The funny thing is, after the "move", there were more free spaces than the drinkers had taken up.
Were the cars tagged or something? Maybe it was just a low attendance day.

If the churchies had been smart they'd have allowed the parking so the "herding instinct" would have had a chance to work. As it is now, the place just looks pathetic on Sunday morning.

I'm still not sure what you are claiming this says about "Christianity in America"?
 
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A local bar got a request from the church across the street asking that their patrons not park in the church lot on Sunday mornings. It seems that people were parking at the church and walking across the street, at 9 AM on Sunday morning, presumably so people would think they were in church and not boozing for breakfast.


See, given that it's known that cops like to stake out bar parking lots and nail people trying to get away, it seems likely that some drinkers might try to avoid that by parking acroos the street- especially since it is a church lot, they're probably not watching it close. I can see why a congregation might not want to tolerate that kind of thing, especially if an impaired driver is leaving the lot at the same time a bunch of families are.
 
I can see the place from here.
And you've been watching the place closely enough to know who each car belongs to, who is going to the bar, and who isn't?

American lie about being religious.
Doesn't that mean that it tells you something about non-christians, and not so much "Christianity in America", if people are pretending to be religious but not actually going to church? Did you have some reason besides your presumptions to think that the drinkers were trying to pretend to be religious by parking in the church lot? Do they do it on Saturdays or Sunday afternoons, for instance? Does the pub have a small lot that fills up quickly? Have the police staked out the pub lot to troll for DUIs?
 
And you've been watching the place closely enough to know who each car belongs to, who is going to the bar, and who isn't?
a. I can see who parks there now.
b. I can see who parks at the bar now.
c. I have a very good idea how many of those parked in church lot by the number of spaces taken up outside the gin joint.

Doesn't that mean that it tells you something about non-christians, and not so much "Christianity in America", if people are pretending to be religious but not actually going to church? Did you have some reason besides your presumptions to think that the drinkers were trying to pretend to be religious by parking in the church lot? Do they do it on Saturdays or Sunday afternoons, for instance? Does the pub have a small lot that fills up quickly? Have the police staked out the pub lot to troll for DUIs?
Save your pettifogging, I didn't even read it.
There are damn few Christians in America. I've been here since Truman was president and I've only met maybe 6 or 7.
 

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