Moon mining

[Graham]

My exhaustive research into the topic has revealed that samples of moonrock contained many minerals/ores/etc useful or valuable on earth including aluminum, calcium, iron, magnesium, oxygen, silicon, and titanium.

Is it likely that mining of the moon could ever prove worthwhile / cost effective?

It seems to me that two posible scenarios produce a "yes" answer to this question:

1) The scale of construction on earth reaches a point where existing supplies of materials are all used up

or

2) New technology requires abundant amounts of some substance rare on earth but available in quantity on the moon, or leads to us using up all available supplies of that substance on earth.

Comments anyone?

Graham

 

[shemp]

Perhaps strip mining of cheese could be profitable.

 

[Graham]

Perhaps strip mining of cheese could be profitable.

Do you know, when I saw your name in the Last Post column, the thought immediately popped into my head "He's going to say something about cheese, isn't he?" but then I thought, "No, surely not. A joke that obvious would be beneath such a comedic geniius as he".

My mistake, evidently but, frankly Shemp, I'm disappointed.



Graham

 

[geni]

There are a number of advantages to mineing on the moon. Mostly they are you are free to stip mine and use other methods people tend to object to on earth. The lack of water would also be handy as you would have fewer flooded minesafts.

 

[Crossbow]

I would expect that Lunar mining could be profitable IF:

There really are a good bit of the materials to be obtained, and
There is a low cost method of moving the vast amount of personnel and equipment that would be needed, and
There is a low cost means to keeping the personnel and equipment properly supplied, and
There is a low cost method for getting the mined materials back to the Earth.

No problemo, right? Well, do not worry, I will have it all worked out by lunch-time!

But seriously, there are still considerable problems getting oil out of rather hostile areas like the North Sea and Artic regions so I think we have a long, long, way to go before Lunar mining could generate more money than it costs to set up shop on the Moon, actually mine the materials in question, then materials back to terra firma.

 

[ceptimus]

Right now, even if there were piles of diamonds and gold nuggets just sat there on the surface of the moon, it would not be economically viable to go and get them. This is true whether human workers or robot probes are used.

Maybe eventually it will be worthwhile.

 

[Graham]

I would imagine extraction and refinging would both be done on site to reduce the cost of transport back to earth.

Personnel is a tricky one though - once in place I suppose the facilities could be largely automated (or at least remote controlled). Given a lack of concern for environmental damage, the processes could be relatively simple. You might not need any full time human workers at all.

You would need construction crews to put the facilities in place though and you would have to get at least the bare bones of the facilities up there from earth in the first place (assuming they could become self sufficient after a period with construction continuing with local materials).

Graham

 

[Hamish]

Mining the moon becomes very cost effective if you are living on the moon and using the mined materials to build and construct things there. If you want to start building large interplanetary spaceships, then mining the materials on the moon again makes more sense as you expend a lot less energy getting them out of the gravity well. Given that the fuel costs in any space program are high, it makes sense not to send everything up from Earth if you can use stuff that's already "up there" so to speak.

Also, remember that current theories suggest that the moon was once part of the Earth and was created via a collision with a Mars-sized body. Therefore, I would assume that you'd find the same stuff on the moon as you do on Earth. I doubt you'd find anything on the moon in abundance that you wouldn't find in equal abundance here. I don't know, however, if the Earth's weather system (flowing water, erosion, oxidation etc) means that chemical changes or dispersion of some materials makes them harder (or maybe even easier) to extract here on Earth. Can anyone think of an example?

 

[Jon_in_london]

It would only be viable for something extremely rare and extremely in demand.

Since cheese is not so rare- moon mining will never be profitable.

 

[Graham]

Mining the moon becomes very cost effective if you are living on the moon and using the mined materials to build and construct things there. If you want to start building large interplanetary spaceships, then mining the materials on the moon again makes more sense as you expend a lot less energy getting them out of the gravity well. Given that the fuel costs in any space program are high, it makes sense not to send everything up from Earth if you can use stuff that's already "up there" so to speak.

Also, remember that current theories suggest that the moon was once part of the Earth and was created via a collision with a Mars-sized body. Therefore, I would assume that you'd find the same stuff on the moon as you do on Earth. I doubt you'd find anything on the moon in abundance that you wouldn't find in equal abundance here. I don't know, however, if the Earth's weather system (flowing water, erosion, oxidation etc) means that chemical changes or dispersion of some materials makes them harder (or maybe even easier) to extract here on Earth. Can anyone think of an example?

A small fact I happened across this morning - The worlds oceans contain 20 milllion tons of gold

As concern for the earth's environment becomes more of an influence on industry (and, let's face it, it probably will eventually) more and more of the planet is going to be closed to mining and extraction operations, pushing up the calue of minerals.

Graham

 

[xouper]

Graham: Is it likely that mining of the moon could ever prove worthwhile / cost effective?

I tend to believe that it will eventually. I commented in another thread:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870140119#post1870140119

Aoidoi: I have yet to hear a good case for a moon base...

xouper: What is your opinion of the case made by O'Neill (and others), especially his point that with an appropriate infrastructure, manufacturing in space will be more economical with resources from the Moon (aluminum, oxygen, silicon, titanium, iron, glass, ceramics, etc) than to lift them out of the Earth's gravity well.

• Gerald K. O'Neill, "The Colonization of Space", Physics Today September 1974, p. 32.
  
• Gerard K. O'Neill, "The High Frontier", William Morrow and Co., NY, 1977; Anchor Books (Doubleday) 1982.
  
• O'Neill, Gerard K.; Driggers, G.; and O'Leary, B.: New Routes to Manufacturing in Space. Astronautics and Aeronautics, vol. 18, October 1980, pp. 46-51.

I read The High Frontier when it first came out, but I don't currently have a copy. That book directly addresses the question of mining the Moon. I believe there have since been many other serious studies on the economic viability of such mining.

 

[Graham]

Re: Re: Moon mining

I tend to believe that it will eventually. I commented in another thread:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870140119#post1870140119

I read The High Frontier when it first came out, but I don't currently have a copy. That book directly addresses the question of mining the Moon. I believe there have since been many other serious studies on the economic viability of such mining.

I haven't read that book but I'll put it on my list (which is long enough to fill a book by itself, sadly)

Meantime, this statement in the Amazon review caught my eye:

Processes not possible on Earth, because of atmosphere and gravity, can be employed in space to produce unique and highly desirable commodities.

Once the facilities were in place, if lunar colonies could produce unique manufactured goods as well as ores, that raises the stakes considerably.

Once regular traffic to and from the moon is enstated, it might also prove cost-effective to maufacture certain regular products there and ship them down. I'm thinking in terms of products that involve hazardous chemicals in the manufacturing stage, for instance.

Of course that traffic might prove a problem in and of itself - I would imagine that rockets produce massive amounts of pollution. That's where the space elevator comes in, of course and where better to build a trial version than on the moon?

Graham

 

[shemp]

Do you know, when I saw your name in the Last Post column, the thought immediately popped into my head "He's going to say something about cheese, isn't he?" but then I thought, "No, surely not. A joke that obvious would be beneath such a comedic geniius as he".

My mistake, evidently but, frankly Shemp, I'm disappointed.



Graham

The Moon is Made of Cheese! Skeptic Report says so!

 

[Hamish]

A small fact I happened across this morning - The worlds oceans contain 20 milllion tons of gold

Graham

Hmm, yes. But gold is one of the easier metals to extract from the crust since it is, for all intents and purposes, completely inert.

But interestingly enough, I found this:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Au/geol.html

Look at the proportion of gold in meteorites!

Going back to the original question, you also need to look at the infrastructure. If you are going to mine rocks on the moon and take them to Earth, you need to set up a cheap way to do this. I think you really need to set up a space-elevator before you can mine the moon economically. I just don't think it could be feasible with cargo-carrying shuttles.

 

[Graham]

Hmm, yes. But gold is one of the easier metals to extract from the crust since it is, for all intents and purposes, completely inert.

But interestingly enough, I found this:

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Au/geol.html

Look at the proportion of gold in meteorites!

I realise that, I was using the quote to demonstrate that, on earth, elements can be and are distributed by the weather, the sea, etc - none of which would be factors on the moon.

Since you mention meteorites, however, what better place to serve as a base for meteorite mining than - you've guessed it - the moon!

Going back to the original question, you also need to look at the infrastructure. If you are going to mine rocks on the moon and take them to Earth, you need to set up a cheap way to do this. I think you really need to set up a space-elevator before you can mine the moon economically. I just don't think it could be feasible with cargo-carrying shuttles.

Definitely agree that existing methods would not be sufficient for regular transport.

Space elevators seem like the most feasible alternative to me but I'm sure there are other alternatives. If there was sufficient incentive, I am quite sure solutions would be found. Someone mentioned the dangers of oil extraction in an earlier post and they were right - it is a dangerous and complicated task and yet it is done everday on a huge scale. The same would happen if it became profitable to set up operations on the moon. Solutions would be found and, IMO, would eventually become commonplace.

Graham

 

[Hamish]

I realise that, I was using the quote to demonstrate that, on earth, elements can be and are distributed by the weather, the sea, etc - none of which would be factors on the moon.

You are correct. However, it isn't whether they are distributed, but how much and whether the ammount of dispersal represents a significant obstacle to extraction. If most of the Earth's gold was in seawater, and hence unobtainable then the moon becomes more attractive, but the proportion is pretty small.

And things like salt are easier to extract from sea-water than they are from rocks.

The more I think about this question, the harder it becomes to answer. You'd need to know the ammount of all extractable minerals on Earth and whether we're likely to run out of them. As far as I know the only "limited" resources are fossil fuels which don't exist on the moon. Did you have a specific example in mind when you wrote the question?

 

[Graham]

You are correct. However, it isn't whether they are distributed, but how much and whether the ammount of dispersal represents a significant obstacle to extraction. If most of the Earth's gold was in seawater, and hence unobtainable then the moon becomes more attractive, but the proportion is pretty small.

And things like salt are easier to extract from sea-water than they are from rocks.

The more I think about this question, the harder it becomes to answer. You'd need to know the ammount of all extractable minerals on Earth and whether we're likely to run out of them. As far as I know the only "limited" resources are fossil fuels which don't exist on the moon. Did you have a specific example in mind when you wrote the question?

No, I didn't have a specific example in mind but here are three broad categories:

1) rare elements which exist only in realatively small quantities on earth. Obviously they would probably only exist in proportional amounts on the moon but still the quantitities could be significant

2) less rare elements of which our earth stocks are depleted. As you say though, i don't know how likely this is, except that it seems to me that as the population continues to grow and the level of development around the world increases, our need for raw materials seems likely to increase masssively.

3) elements that it has become economically, socially or environmentally unviable to extract from the earth in sufficient quantity for industry.

As humanity sreads across the planet more and more areas of land become unavailable for industrial exploitation because of NIMBYism or simple inaccesibility (you can't mine for iron under a city suburb, for instance).

I also assume that more easily accesible supplies of ore are mined first and that, as time passes, the remaining supplies will become more and more difficult and expensive to reach

Graham

 

[Graham]

PS - I used "elements" a lot in that last post. I don't mean to limit thinking to pure elemental substances.

 

[aerocontrols]

It would only be viable for something extremely rare and extremely in demand.

Since cheese is not so rare- moon mining will never be profitable.

It's not the scarcity of cheese that is the problem, so much as the Cheese Gap


This gap is dangerous.

MattJ

 

[jj]

A small fact I happened across this morning - The worlds oceans contain 20 milllion tons of gold

Yes, yes, but the problem is the concentration. It's NOT concentrated.

We need to engineer an organism that lives in salt water that segregates gold.