[Moderated]Pearl Harbor was not a surprise

[kageki]

Was Pearl Harbor really a surprise?

or

Did FDR really know about the coming attack and deliberately kept it a secret and sacrificed Pearl Harbor to get the US to enter WWII?


Issues

The US sent an unfair ultimatum to Japan. Japan's response to the ultimatum is mired in mystery.

Japan never had ambitions to invade the US:

The intent of the strike was to protect Imperial Japan's advance into Malaya and the Dutch East Indies – for their natural resources such as oil and rubber – by neutralizing the U.S. Pacific Fleet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor
http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

 

[332nd]

Ah... So they just wanted to take out the Pacific Fleet... Leaving our west coast unprotected...

Right, Ok, How did the US know the attack was going to be on Pearl Harbor?

 

[Hokulele]

Kageki, what do you think of the Japanese occupation of the Alaskan islands of Attu and Kiska?

 

[Plantfoam]

What's sad is that my high school history teacher vaguely mentioned this conspiracy theory. You know, all of the usual things, such as the presence of obsolete battleships, and the absence of precious carriers.

As usual, it comes down to circumstantial evidence, and there is no real evidence of such a cover up. If so, it would be too big of a story to be contained by the interwebs.

My question is: When did the notion come about that the US had to be attacked in order to go to war? Also, if they knew an attack was coming, they at least could have been ready to fight to some degree, and the event still would have had the same effect on the American public, IMO.

 

[kageki]

Kageki, what do you think of the Japanese occupation of the Alaskan islands of Attu and Kiska?

What does this have to do with whether Pearl Harbor was a surprise or not? FDR knew.

If you would like to add more details regarding those islands for the purpose of discussion then feel free.

 

[Hokulele]

What does this have to do with whether Pearl Harbor was a surprise or not? FDR knew.

If you would like to add more details regarding those islands for the purpose of discussion then feel free.

This was in regard to your comment, "The Japanese never had ambitions to invade the US."

 

[Tbone]

I don't see how Japan not planning to invade the US has any bearing on whether or not the attack on Pearl Harbour is a conspiracy or not.

 

[kageki]

Ah... So they just wanted to take out the Pacific Fleet... Leaving our west coast unprotected...

Right, Ok, How did the US know the attack was going to be on Pearl Harbor?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

President Roosevelt (FDR) provoked the attack, knew about it in advance and covered up his failure to warn the Hawaiian commanders. FDR needed the attack to sucker Hitler to declare war, since the public and Congress were overwhelmingly against entering the war in Europe. It was his backdoor to war.

FDR blinded the commanders at Pearl Harbor and set them up by -

1. denying intelligence to Hawaii (HI)
2. on Nov 27, misleading the commanders into thinking negotiations with Japan were continuing to prevent them from realizing the war was on
3. having false information sent to HI about the location of the Japanese carrier fleet.

In 1979 the NSA released 2,413 JN-25 orders of the 26,581 intercepted by US between Sept 1 and Dec 4, 1941. The NSA says "We know now that they contained important details concerning the existence, organization, objective, and even the whereabouts of the Pearl Harbor Strike Force." (Parker p 21)

CONCLUSION - ROOSEVELT WAS A TRAITOR

The US was warned by, at least, the governments of Britain, Netherlands, Australia, Peru, Korea and the Soviet Union that a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was coming. All important Japanese codes were broken. FDR and Marshall and others knew the attack was coming, allowed it and covered up their knowledge. It's significant that both the the chief of OP-20-G Safford and Friedman of Army SIS, the two people in the world that knew what we decoded, said that FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked.

 

[Plantfoam]

I don't see how Japan not planning to invade the US has any bearing on whether or not the attack on Pearl Harbour is a conspiracy or not.

Yes, I'm trying to figure it out as well. I mean, if you want to be the dominant power in the Pacific, making logistical strikes on the country standing in your way is not necessary?

 

[maxpower1227]

WHAT DID FDR KNOW AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?!!

ASK QUESTIONS! IGNORE ANSWERS!!!!11ONE~!1ELEVENTYONE!!!

.../caps

 

[332nd]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/pearlhbr.htm

The 7 December 1941 Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor was one of the great defining moments in history. A single carefully-planned and well-executed stroke removed the United States Navy's battleship force as a possible threat to the Japanese Empire's southward expansion. America, unprepared and now considerably weakened, was abruptly brought into the Second World War as a full combatant.

These great Japanese successes, achieved without prior diplomatic formalities, shocked and enraged the previously divided American people into a level of purposeful unity hardly seen before or since. For the next five months, until the Battle of the Coral Sea in early May, Japan's far-reaching offensives proceeded untroubled by fruitful opposition. American and Allied morale suffered accordingly. Under normal political circumstances, an accomodation might have been considered.

There, we've traded cut-n-pastes and links. You have any thoughts?

 

[kageki]

WHAT DID FDR KNOW AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?!!

ASK QUESTIONS! IGNORE ANSWERS!!!!11ONE~!1ELEVENTYONE!!!

.../caps

Well if you can't read then I'll repeat it.

FDR knew precisely where the Japanese fleet was and knew exactly that they were going to attack Pearl Harbor. I'll try to get that dates for you, but it still doesn't matter as to the fact that FDR did know. You're free to do your own research.

 

[qarnos]

What's sad is that my high school history teacher vaguely mentioned this conspiracy theory. You know, all of the usual things, such as the presence of obsolete battleships, and the absence of precious carriers.

I'm not ever sure the true value of carriers was known prior to Pearl Harbour. The battleship was still #1 in those days, and they lost plenty of them in the attack.

 

[MG1962]

Okay lets actually get some facts on the table.

First. Did the US know an attack was comming. The answer is a resounding yes.

Did the US know Pearl was the target. No, it was consider one of a number of possiblities, with Manilla being the favoured tactical choice.

What efforts did the US undertake to avoid the attack. They moved to strenghten the US Pacific fleet. They believed the attack would either be a conventional fleet action or outright invasion. The problem was, this elevated the Japanese interest in attacking Pearl. As well as the destruction of vitial faclities, the destruction of the fleet at anchor was too good to pass up.

Now as you were in the debate - smoke em if ya got em

 

[MG1962]

I'm not ever sure the true value of carriers was known prior to Pearl Harbour. The battleship was still #1 in those days, and they lost plenty of them in the attack.

That carrier was elevated substantially in status after the successful Taranto raid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto

Prior to this most carrier were built from converted battleship hulls that were deemed surplus under the 1923 Washington treaty, and continued under the London 1930 and 36 agreements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Naval_Treaty

 

[geni]

That carrier was elevated substantially in status after the successful Taranto raid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto

Only to those that gave it proper consideration which pretty much amounted to the japanese and the british mediterranean fleet.

 

[MG1962]

Only to those that gave it proper consideration which pretty much amounted to the japanese and the british mediterranean fleet.

Thats true, but you can assume every other navy in the world went "Hmmm thats interesting"

 

[kageki]

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/pearlhbr.htm

There, we've traded cut-n-pastes and links. You have any thoughts?

On that blatant US propaganda? Where to start?

America, unprepared and now considerably weakened, was abruptly brought into the Second World War as a full combatant.

This isn't even factual. America was prepared. America was not considerably weakened. America well knew what was going on and Roosevelt in reality wanted war. They should add:

"and triumphantly marches onward to push back the Japanese which lead to their surrender shortly after the use of 2 atomic bombs."

The 7 December 1941 Japanese raid on Pearl Harbor was one of the great defining moments in history. A single carefully-planned and well-executed stroke removed the United States Navy's battleship force as a possible threat to the Japanese Empire's southward expansion.

Wasn't the American loss in Pearl Harbor highly exaggerated other then the death toll? Even with the loss of the battleship forces the US ended up winning after all, so those losses could not have been that bad. This whole section is propaganda in stoking the myth that it was a surprise.

These great Japanese successes, achieved without prior diplomatic formalities, shocked and enraged the previously divided American people

More US propaganda. There was prior diplomatic formalities and the US government well knew what was going on. Japan did declare war so what was the problem? That it was a surprise? What do you think the British and the US were doing around there too?



http://www.doi.gov/oia/maps/oceania_map_UTexas.jpg

I don't know about you, but Hawaii seems much closer to Japan then the US. Last time I checked there are indigenous Hawaiians that live on that remote island archipelago. What business does the US really have including Hawaii as a state of the US?

Do you honestly think the British and the US don't have imperialist ambitions? What makes you think the US didn't have their eyes set on expanding control to the west?

 

[332nd]

On that blatant US propaganda? Where to start?

So wikipedia and Whatreally happened are reliable sources in your book? Noted.

This isn't even factual. America was prepared. America was not considerably weakened. America well knew what was going on and Roosevelt in reality wanted war. They should add:

"and triumphantly marches onward to push back the Japanese which lead to their surrender shortly after the use of 2 atomic bombs."

America was prepared yet my namesake (as far and my net handle goes) trained in Bi-planes? We were so desperate for a hero coming out of Pearl Harbor They had to tout Dory Miller? Have you ever heard of Occom's Razor?

Wasn't the American loss in Pearl Harbor highly exaggerated other then the death toll? Even with the loss of the battleship forces the US ended up winning after all, so those losses could not have been that bad. This whole section is propaganda in stoking the myth that it was a surprise.

Using your logic the Bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima wasn't that bad because Japan went on to become a world leader in technology.

More US propaganda. There was prior diplomatic formalities and the US government well knew what was going on. Japan did declare war so what was the problem? That it was a surprise? What do you think the British and the US were doing around there too?

So America declared war on Japan before pearl Harbor? Where did you learn that?



http://www.doi.gov/oia/maps/oceania_map_UTexas.jpg

http://www.doi.gov/oia/maps/oceania_map_UTexas.jpg

I don't know about you, but Hawaii seems much closer to Japan then the US. Last time I checked there are indigenous Hawaiians that live on that remote island archipelago. What business does the US really have including Hawaii as a state of the US?

Have you figured out the radar systems of America at that time yet? Oh, and we voted to make Hawaii a state.

Do you honestly think the British and the US don't have imperialist ambitions? What makes you think the US didn't have their eyes set on expanding control to the west?

Besides the fact that Japan isn't the 51st state?

 

[MG1962]

On that blatant US propaganda? Where to start?


Wasn't the American loss in Pearl Harbor highly exaggerated other then the death toll? Even with the loss of the battleship forces the US ended up winning after all, so those losses could not have been that bad. This whole section is propaganda in stoking the myth that it was a surprise.

Grasping for straws here a little

Forces present at Pearl Harbor

8 battleships,
8 cruisers,
29 destroyers,
9 submarines,
~50 other ships,
~390 aircraft

Results of Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor

2 battleships sunk,
6 battleships damaged,
3 cruisers damaged,
2 destroyers sunk, 1 damaged,
1 other ship sunk, 3 damaged,
188 aircraft destroyed,
155 aircraft damaged

If you can supply any contempory account of the action that shows different figures (confirmed sources of course) I would love to see them.

And it must be remembered the cancel third strike would have caused absolute carnage - the tank farm on Ford Island and dry dock facilities were targets for this flight