MMR

[BillHoyt]

Are vaccines a drug?

Well my first response would be for the majoritory No, because they are living organisms (viruses living? close enough for this point) or killed organisms. I would suggest that a drug refers to a single chemical compound that causes a physiological effect upon the body. A vaccine is a far more complex substance , that may contain drugs.

its late!

Vaccines are not drugs. Neither do they contain drugs. Vaccines are challenges to the immune system designed to provoke a defensive response. They rely on the immune system's memory to retain a "record" of how to fight the invader that they simulate. Sometimes they are made from parts of viruses or biota, sometimes alive, usually modified (disabled somehow) or dead as doornails. Sometimes they contain the toxins produced by the invader (pertussis, for example)

Drugs do not always directly affect the body. They are often poisons for invading organisms, and nothing more.

Cheers,

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Drugs do not always directly affect the body. They are often poisons for invading organisms, and nothing more

[sarcasm]Why use 'poisons' to kill invaders when you can buy detoxifiers that cleanses your body of all them nasty poisons people subject their bodies to. Then your body can fight off invaders perfectly fine on its own. While you're at it, buy all natural non-poisonous 'supplements' to boost your immune system. Yes, they are expensive, but you'll be pure and have more energy. Them nasty poisons wear the immune system down and cause fatigue. And read up on how horrible drug companies push drugs and vaccines for profit.[/sarcasm]


Yeah, those folks selling books and supplements aren't living high on the hog from profits...no...not at all...

 

[BillyJoe]

Eos of the Eons,

Viruses are not cultured in Petri dishes.

BillyJoe.

 

[BillHoyt]

Eos of the Eons,

Viruses are not cultured in Petri dishes.

BillyJoe.

BillyJoe,

Well, yes and no. Generally, they are not cultured in petri dishes. However, there are viral morphology assays that are done in petri dishes. A cell monolayer is put at the dish's bottom. The virus is then pipetted onto the cell layer, and agar poured over that.

Cheers,

 

[BillyJoe]

Okay, apologies to Eos then. BJ

 

[Eos of the Eons]

We did play with viruses in my microbiology classes. We'd have to 'grow' viruses in bacteria in a similar fashion to BillHoyt's description (it's been 10 years). The instructor wouldn't tell us which virus so we could experiment.

We'd then 'isolate' some of the viruses and do tests to try to determine which virus or at least viral group it was. In one he had two viruses mixed together (if I remember correctly) to throw us off and see if we figured it out.

I just saw this quote from hitler, it reminds me of how quacker and the anti-vaxxers work.

While terror is useful in the short term, propoganda is always a better bet for getting long-term support

First you scare people with tales of (in hitler's case) jews dominating the economical resources, then just keep adding more and more propoganda until everyone gives you the "long-term" support and even help you spread your propoganda messages.


This may be an extreme analogy, but it seems fitting.

First, tell parents that vaccines are hurting your kids. Then scare them with horror stories. Then add in some propoganda about governments and drug companies, and Voila...the people support you and buy your information and alternatives to "mainstream medicine".

 

[Eos of the Eons]

THE BEST article on how the MMR scare got started.

Why did the British media fall for Dr Wakefield? Perhaps in part it was the enduring appeal of what the American mathematician Norman Levitt calls the Galileo myth, 'the idea of the lone noble genius whose insight transcends that of his hidebound age and who consequently faces scorn and persecution for his advocacy of unconventional truth' (4).

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DDBF.htm

Mark Geier is a genetic counsellor in Maryland, USA; his son David is a graduate student who runs MedCon, a firm providing advice to families pursuing litigation claims over alleged vaccine injury. Though neither has any academic or professional expertise in any discipline relevant to immunisation, the Geiers feature prominently in the conferences and websites of autism parents and other anti-immunisation groups in the USA...Despite the fact that there is no scientific evidence in support of either theory - and a great deal against - these campaigns have continued to attract desperate and vulnerable parents, encouraged by the sort of junk science produced by the Geiers.

ill-served by the media's uncritical treatment of the anti-MMR campaign. All that is required to establish the credibility of the Geiers and their research is access to google.com. Yet it seems that the prejudice against MMR in sections of the British media is such that all critical and investigative instincts are in suspension.

Having failed to come up with hard evidence for the hypothesis of a link between the Measles, Mumps and Rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism, campaigners against MMR are now provoking popular anxieties by presenting their research directly to the public before submitting it to proper scientific evaluation and confirmation. The result is an increasingly irrational campaign, sustained in part by uncritical media commentary.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D970.htm

Though Professor O'Leary himself denied that his work gave any support to the case against MMR, in the weeks leading up to the July Dublin meeting it was widely cited by anti-MMR campaigners. Throughout June 2002, reports of the impending publication of this research provided a major publicity boost to a campaign that had flagged since the Christmas 2001 furore over whether Tony Blair's son Leo had had his MMR jab (a period in which the uptake of MMR had shown signs of recovery). The hype surrounding the O'Leary paper reveals much about the modus operandi of the campaign and its leading figure, Dr Wakefield.

And hey, I've been saying this all along:

There are other beneficiaries of the anti-MMR campaign. Private GPs are now making profits of several hundred percent from selling separate vaccines. Lawyers are eagerly collecting legal aid fees by inflating the hopes of parents that they may gain substantial compensation for the alleged damages from MMR through the pursuit of litigation. It is not surprising that both are enthusiastic supporters of Dr Wakefield's crusade. It seems that Britain's investigative journalists are so smitten by Dr Wakefield's charisma and so credulous towards junk science, that they are reluctant to investigate the real abuses generated around the anti-MMR campaign.

Dr Wakefield has a history of courting the press. As early as 1995 his photograph appears in a lengthy anti-MMR feature in the Sunday Times (London) magazine, in which his earlier (and subsequently discredited) thesis of a link between MMR and Crohn's disease is quoted. It seems that parents of autistic children first began to make the link with MMR in response to this and similar articles in the mid-1990s, and brought their children to Dr Wakefield's clinic at the Royal Free Hospital in North London.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D8F3.htm


How much more 'debunking' does this guy need? Wakefield and Scheibner have been more than disproved, but still people feel they are heros. Then we have folks like Hilary Butler adding more nonsense to the whole thing and she has no idea what she is talking about.

Well, what to do? I wonder when Hilary will get her book out.

 

[Chris Haynes]

You might be interested in this article:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/healthscience/2001534120_vaccine17m.html

With quotes like this:
"Susan Jacobs, who is studying to be a naturopathic physician, has had daughter Elizah, 2, vaccinated for two diseases but decided to forgo most others for now."

Which may me ask why one would go to a "physician" that has very little understanding of immunology and statistics?

and this final quote, which sounds so true:
"Marcuse called local communities with more than 20 percent of kids unvaccinated "accidents waiting to happen."

"Somebody is going to come from some part of the world where there's measles and somebody may die," he said. "And then folks will rethink their decision. Sometimes the system has to break before it gets fixed." "

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Hayes blamed the decline in part on the state's liberal exemption laws, which allow parents to exempt their children from school-vaccination requirements by checking a box on a school form

Why don't they find out the real reasons why and ask those parents WHERE they are getting their information from?

The media is at it again 'presenting both sides' and ignorant about the false information the parents are getting.

Hayes needs to dig a little deeper and know that trying to give parents 'accurate information' is not going to work at all. Instead the idiocy of the misinformation needs to be exposed ALOT through the media.

Parents are much more fearful of disorders like autism than measles, he said, so when they hear reports linking the measles vaccine to increased risk of the developmental condition — even though the mainstream medical community has repeatedly rejected the connection — they are quick to forgo the vaccine.

Why don't they print WHY the 'mainstream medical community' is rejecting the connection? The media needs to drop the word 'mainstream'. It paints the medical community as one-sided and ignorant. It makes the 'alternative sides' 'good' because they are not 'mainstream'.

The media needs to start recognizing their role in the confusion.

Like I said, our TV station (CFRN) went with a story on a paren'ts suspicions about vaccines causing autism in her daughter. Then they finished the story with information about 'alternative' medicine.

There needs to be national exposure about people like Wakefield and Scheibner and why they are not to be believed. 10, 000 Canadians a year buy Scheibner's book. A couple of hundred thousand listen to Wakefield. This is because they have no idea where or why those 'doctors' came up with their information.

Then we have the media going on about 'mainstream' and the not so real reasons of fearing vaccines are printed.

This fear and misinformation needed to be stopped at the source, and we need a good doctor who is not afraid to lay it all out about the sources of garbage medicine. Will someone educate the media already? Please please please? I can't do anything. I don't have the credentials. Also, my 'presentation' isn't effective (as already pointed out). We need a believable level headed source to bring down the people like Wakefield once and for all.

My daughter is at risk until she is fully vaccinated. If something breaks out, then she's going to get it. It's not fair that my daughter can be hurt because of other peoples' ignorance.

Dr Wakefield is a scientist who has turned hypothesis into dogma, resolutely refusing to abandon his theory despite his failure to provide convincing evidence to support it. For the past decade he has put advanced claims that the measles virus, either as the 'wild' or in the attenuated form in vaccines, causes chronic diseases. In the early 1990s, he put forward a range of hypotheses about links between measles virus and Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, which he claimed to have demonstrated. When other researchers failed to replicate these findings, the scientific world concluded that Dr Wakefield's theories had turned out to be mistaken and moved on.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006D970.htm

 

[Chris Haynes]

Why don't they find out the real reasons why and ask those parents WHERE they are getting their information from?

The media is at it again 'presenting both sides' and ignorant about the false information the parents are getting.
...

They did here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/healthscience/2001534123_vaccineside17m.html

I could tell they used the NVIC as a source of the "fear" paragraphs.

When there was a measles outbreak a couple of years ago The Seattle Times was in no way presenting both sides. Unlike the other paper they had a reporter who dug up stories about parents who had suffered through their kids' illnesses after skipping vaccines:
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsour...b/vortex/display?slug=measles08&date=20010208

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Thanks for the links. I can see what you're saying. I'm preparing a letter to the editor to my local paper on sources/origins and why they can't be trusted. This before I see the extreme side having their claims posted first, like what happened to irradiation. Then if they use any of the crap that I already wrote about, it will have no believable quality to it.


They still aren't reporting who came up with the nonsense in the first place or why. Maybe becaue it's too 'conspiracy theorist'?

Why don't they mention wakefield and the fact that it's his 'claims' about MMR causing autism that have been disproven?

Why don't they mention Viera Scheibner and her claims about DPT/DTaP causing brain damage that have been disproven?

I'd like to know where the MS and claim came from.

The mercury claim is pushed mostly by 'alternative' groups. They usually have a nice alternative for vaccines you can buy instead of getting your kids vaccinated. These alternatives include information on nutrition, supplements, vitamins, stuff to cleanse your body of vaccines if you were exposed, etc.

Then there's the host of other claims that they didn't address.
Vaccines causing shaken baby syndrome, smallpox, AIDS, Cancer, and the 'fact' that aborted baby fetuses are used to make vaccines. I know hundreds of people that believe all of that. Some are personal friends.

You can tell them this is all not true, but they will say "well so and so said so" (like wakefield) and that people like wakefield are far more believable than 'mainstream medicine' because of the drug companies, gov't, etc. that PUSH vaccines for profit.

They believe brain swelling is caused by MMR, and saying that MMR causes brain swelling is simply fearmongering. Well, that article you linked to says otherwise, thank you.

If you can tell them that wakefield and the rest are full of bull and why, you MIGHT get their attention finally.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Bump (following xoupers lead)

 

[geni]

Not needed. This thread is just in the 6 mounth safe zone