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Misconceptions About Electricity

Compared to each other. Will 3 identical bulbs burn equally bright no matter what the length of the intervening wires?

Yes. The bulbs will always be equally bright.

Of course adding a really long wire somewhere will add resistance and that will reduce the brightness compared to not having the long wire. But the bulbs will still be as bright as eachother.
 
:p
In a straight DC circuit, with 3 light bulbs connected serially, is there any even theoretical drop in the relative brightness of the 3 bulbs? This puzzle was put to me by a friend who was coaching his stepson in maths and physics as the boy was coming up to some exams.
No. They would all be the same brightness. But.... They would be dimmer than if you hooked them up parallel.:p
 
Many text books instead promote a stupid idea that electrons flow out of the positive and then dump energy off at a load and flow back to the negetive. This is completely wrong.
Ummmmm...... I think you just misinterprated what they wrote. Electron holes actually flow from positive to negative and you might have missed that part. Its weird as hell but it is correct.
Electrons in electricity do not move at the speed of light or anywhere near it, they move extremely slowly, on the order of a few inches PER HOUR!
Yeah that doesn't sound right. At least I pray to god not because Im going to be jacking electrons up to the surface metal disks and I really hope they aren't that slow.
 
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Yeah that doesn't sound right. At least I pray to god not because Im going to be jacking electrons up to the surface metal disks and I really hope they aren't that slow.

It's completely correct. The drift velocity for electrons in a circuit is quite small, as in millimeters per second. The signal velocity (which determines how quickly the circuit responds) can be quite large, as in a significant fraction of the speed of light. It's kind of like a hose filled with water: if you turn on the spigot, water starts coming out the end almost immediately, even though it may take time for the water coming from the spigot to get to the end of the hose. So when you flip a light switch, for example, the electrons that cross the switch may take a long time to get to the lightbulb, but the electrons that were already in the wire and lightbulb will start moving in response MUCH sooner, and the light turns on instantly from our perspective. Drift velocity almost never matters.
 
In a straight DC circuit, with 3 light bulbs connected serially, is there any even theoretical drop in the relative brightness of the 3 bulbs? This puzzle was put to me by a friend who was coaching his stepson in maths and physics as the boy was coming up to some exams.
The reason I ask is mainly that I vaguely recall the original attempts at installing domestic electricity - using DC - failed because of power loss over large distances. That might be a separate issue from my question, I realise.

cheers

Providing the bulbs are incandescent, and are truely identical, then you have four resistances in series: the three bulbs, and the combined resistance of the wires and the internal resistance of the power source. The brilliance of the lights is proportional (perhaps somewhat non-linearly) to the current flowing in the loop, which is equal to the voltage of the power supply divided by the total resistance. The current through the three bulbs will be equal - must be - so they will all three be equally bright. As the line length increases the fourth resistance goes up, and so the current through the loop decreases, so the three lightbulbs will each be dimmer, but still equal.

The reason DC fails is, as G O R T said, because transformers cannot be used to convert high voltage - low current power to low voltage - high current power. The higher the voltage, the more insulation is required to contain it; the higher the current, the thicker the wires need to be to handle it. High voltages minimize copper costs over long runs (and where the wires can be kept long distances from anything needing to be insulated), but it is dangerous to use in homes, where wires must be very close to each other (and to people, too). On the other hand, generators, motors, light bulbs and other devices work most efficiently at low voltages and high current. It is advantageous to be able to easily and efficiently convert from low voltage to high voltage and then back to low, but transformers only work when their magnetic fields are changing, which is what AC does continuously.

In applications where DC can be generated and used at the same voltage, and doesn't need to be transmitted long distances (trivially, in any battery driven tool; better, in a motor-generator, such as those in diesel rail locomotives), DC works just fine, and is slightly safer for humans at a given voltage. Electronics work on DC exclusively.
 
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In applications where DC can be generated and used at the same voltage, and doesn't need to be transmitted long distances (trivially, in any battery driven tool; better, in a motor-generator, such as those in diesel rail locomotives), DC works just fine, and is slightly safer for humans at a given voltage. Electronics work on DC exclusively.

This is not totally correct. There are DC voltage converters which can perform the same function as transformers, they're just not nearly as cheap. And DC power DOES get used for long-distance power transmission - in fact, for long distances it's more economical because transmission line construction costs and transmission losses are lower for DC lines, and the extra cost of converters becomes unimportant. Furthermore, DC transmission lines allow the connection of asynchronous grids, which is pretty much a requirement for large-scale stability since it's hard to guarantee synchronization if the grid gets big enough (if an AC grid gets out of synch, you'll crash it).
 
Electrons in electricity do not move at the speed of light or anywhere near it, they move extremely slowly, on the order of a few inches PER HOUR!

Does the speed vary with the thickness of wire/conductor? As the peas in a large pipe would move less if you pushed one in at one end than they would in a smaller pipe.

If so, are the electrons in the latest chips/CPUs moving considerably faster than in normal wiring?
 
Does the speed vary with the thickness of wire/conductor?

Yes.

If so, are the electrons in the latest chips/CPUs moving considerably faster than in normal wiring?

Not really, because it also varies with current, and the current in a single wire or transistor of a modern CPU is extremely small as well.
 
I ran across an interesting phenomina during a cross country road trip. We had stopped under a high voltage power line crossing a New Mexico road to take some pictures. Upon opening the trunk there was a rather intense AC "hum" when lightly touching the car body which was similar to lightly touching an ungrounded appliance though somewhat more intense. This was obviously from the capacitive coupling of the car to the AC field from the power lines to earth. Good thing the car was only 6 inches or so off the ground. I douldn't want to touch it if it were say, a truck on a high wheel base and I was barefoot.
 
I ran across an interesting phenomina during a cross country road trip. We had stopped under a high voltage power line crossing a New Mexico road to take some pictures. Upon opening the trunk there was a rather intense AC "hum" when lightly touching the car body which was similar to lightly touching an ungrounded appliance though somewhat more intense. This was obviously from the capacitive coupling of the car to the AC field from the power lines to earth. Good thing the car was only 6 inches or so off the ground. I douldn't want to touch it if it were say, a truck on a high wheel base and I was barefoot.


That sounds illegal. There are limits to how much field intensity power equipment can send into an area where people might reasonably be found.

Maybe you were really in a sweet spot where sound or ground vibrations from the support tower were making your car hum.
 
Does the speed vary with the thickness of wire/conductor? As the peas in a large pipe would move less if you pushed one in at one end than they would in a smaller pipe.

If so, are the electrons in the latest chips/CPUs moving considerably faster than in normal wiring?

Ah, now one has to consider the dimensions of the wire to figure out the phase velocity. Essentially the wires on an IC are so small and the frequencies so high that they can act like wave guides. This is completely different to the kind of calculation you need for mains electricity, or low frequency electronics like hifi and radio up to around 100MHz (give or take).

But, the drift velocity is the same. That velocity is limited by the physical characteristics of the material the conductor is made out of.

(Precisely how bizarre high frequency design can be I recall helping a friend build a UHF amateur radio transmitter, the output stage included a flat bar with a chunk of brass at the end shorting it to earth. At the frequencies involved, that chunk of brass was high impedance.)
 
If so, are the electrons in the latest chips/CPUs moving considerably faster than in normal wiring?

Charge carrier speed is well understood in semi-conductors. I did a nominal calculation for electron speed in an n-type doped silicon (10^15 impurities per cc) and it turned out to be 1.36 cm/s. That's only an average and it could be much faster or slower depending on many different factors but it's probably an uncontroversial figure.
 
Thanks for the info, what about lightning arcing through air, is that slow moving electrons too? (sorry for the slight derail of the topic)
 
That sounds illegal. There are limits to how much field intensity power equipment can send into an area where people might reasonably be found.

Maybe you were really in a sweet spot where sound or ground vibrations from the support tower were making your car hum.

Nope. The sensed "hum" was clearly electrical, not mechanical, though at low currents 60 Hz AC is sensed similar to a mechical vibration. As the current increases it changes and becomes stronger to the point of becoming unpleasant or even intolerable.

However, it was a very rural area with nothing but plain and scrub from miles.

If you run a couple 1000pf caps in series from the 120 hot to gnd you get a similar sensation touching a metal plate attached to the center of the divider.

I wish I'd had a voltmeter with me at the time.
 
Thanks for the info, what about lightning arcing through air, is that slow moving electrons too? (sorry for the slight derail of the topic)

Individual electrons will still move much more slowly than the wave front (ie, the lighting strike). But I suspect they will move considerably faster than in a metal, because the mean free path (the average distance an electron can travel before hitting something) is probably significantly larger, so they will accelerate in the electric field for longer.
 
Thanks for the info, what about lightning arcing through air, is that slow moving electrons too? (sorry for the slight derail of the topic)

Yes, though they travel faster in a lightning bolt. One way to estimate electron flow is to look at the current (in electrons per second) in comparison to the electron density of the material. Ionized air is much less dense than metals and so the electrons have to move much faster at a given current density.
 
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The truth is that the properties of charge transport are thoroughly understood semi-conductors but not so much in a regular conductors or resistors. I don't even know where to begin looking for an answer about lightning. I actually opted to take EM physics II instead of the lightning class when I got my EE degree.

I would hazard a guess that because air molecules are so spread out that electrons, once stripped from their shells, would travel long distances under a high voltage and attain relativistic speeds before striking another air molecule. They would move really really fast on average.
 
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Kindof OT, but maybe someone can help me out. I read Henri Poincare's Science and Hypothesis (English translation). The theories I've never heard of I can research, but the chapter on electrodynamics talks about open currents and closed currents. I can't find anything on what an open current is.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5n...fSbDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11

Can anyone enlighten me on 19th century physics? It'd be nice if someone would make a reprint of this book with appendices describing the people and theories of 19th century physics and also some diagrams.
 
It's completely correct. The drift velocity for electrons in a circuit is quite small, as in millimeters per second. The signal velocity (which determines how quickly the circuit responds) can be quite large, as in a significant fraction of the speed of light. It's kind of like a hose filled with water: if you turn on the spigot, water starts coming out the end almost immediately, even though it may take time for the water coming from the spigot to get to the end of the hose. So when you flip a light switch, for example, the electrons that cross the switch may take a long time to get to the lightbulb, but the electrons that were already in the wire and lightbulb will start moving in response MUCH sooner, and the light turns on instantly from our perspective. Drift velocity almost never matters.
Yeah that was me being a freaking moron. :boxedin:
Nope. The sensed "hum" was clearly electrical, not mechanical, though at low currents 60 Hz AC is sensed similar to a mechical vibration. As the current increases it changes and becomes stronger to the point of becoming unpleasant or even intolerable.

However, it was a very rural area with nothing but plain and scrub from miles.

If you run a couple 1000pf caps in series from the 120 hot to gnd you get a similar sensation touching a metal plate attached to the center of the divider.

I wish I'd had a voltmeter with me at the time.
I thought electrical hum was in fact mechanical hum induced by electricity. Also how could you tell that the current was changing?
 
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Yeah that was me being a freaking moron. :boxedin:

I thought electrical hum was in fact mechanical hum induced by electricity.

A lot is. Audible hum certainly always is. It's possible that the sensation produced against the skin is mechanical, especially at low levels before it becomes uncomfortable/painful. Not sure where the threshold is or what experiments have been done to distinguish it.
 

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