Militia question 1

rikzilla said:


To that end the 2nd says:


"Shall not be infringed" seems to me to speak to the fact that a right to bear arms already existed in America, and the 2nd merely is recognising that it shouldn't be infringed since actively bearing a servicable weapon is the most basic activity of a militiaman.

Just MHO.

-z


People take the "shall not be infringe" line to mean that there shoudl be ZERO regulation on arms. But arent there at least some restrictions on all our freedoms??? Even free speech, religion and the others have reasonable limits. Like time/place/manner restictions or public safety restrictions.

Is there any right that is absolute??
 
Cleopatra said:
So far I haven't read a definite, one sentenced answer to Claus' question.

So, I repeat it. Who regulates militia? The President? The Congress? The local sheriff?? Me? You? Who?

Can we have the answer in one sentence please?

You'll need to clarify which definition of "regulated" the 2nd amm. is using. You can already disqualify the first one as the 2nd amm. would be internally inconsistent if it was calling for the type of regulation Claus is assuming.

Simply put, any regulation that would "infringe" in any way the pre-existing recognised right to bear arms could not be what is meant.

So pick from the other meanings of "regulate":
  • To adjust to a particular specification or requirement: regulate temperature.
  • To adjust (a mechanism) for accurate and proper functioning.
  • To put or maintain in order: regulate one's eating habits.

Take your pick, then re-ask the question Claus....it becomes a non-sense question, which is precisely why that fact should kill this thread now.... :rolleyes:

-z
 
shanek said:
Uh, they didn't want a big, professional military. They were fearful of standing armies as being a threat to freedom. Looking at the history since then, it appears that their concerns were well-founded.

I seem to recall that to a degree a least though you ended up with a professional military after finding that the amature sort wasn't that effective on the battlefield.
 
Tmy said:
People take the "shall not be infringe" line to mean that there shoudl be ZERO regulation on arms. But arent there at least some restrictions on all our freedoms???
rikzilla said:
Simply put, any regulation that would "infringe" in any way the pre-existing recognised right to bear arms could not be what is meant.
A lot of our rights, such as the right to a jury, are not absolute rights. The Constitution, as rikzilla pointed out, simply limits the government from infringing on rights as they already existed when the Constitution was ratified. This gives a lot of ground for historical analysis and interpretation, but this is the way it is with our common law system.
 
Cleopatra said:
So far I haven't read a definite, one sentenced answer to Claus' question.

So, I repeat it. Who regulates militia? The President? The Congress? The local sheriff?? Me? You? Who?

Can we have the answer in one sentence please?

What was wrong with this answer? From my first post, "The militia should regulate itself, like the Army does." You may have to dig a bit to find out that the US Army runs itself, with the ulimate authority being the President of the United States.

Ranb
 
Cleopatra said:
So far I haven't read a definite, one sentenced answer to Claus' question.

So, I repeat it. Who regulates militia? The President? The Congress? The local sheriff?? Me? You? Who?

Can we have the answer in one sentence please?

Thank you.
 
Cleopatra said:
So far I haven't read a definite, one sentenced answer to Claus' question.

So, I repeat it. Who regulates militia? The President? The Congress? The local sheriff?? Me? You? Who?

Can we have the answer in one sentence please?

Just a lay-person's opinion, but it seems to me that since the 2nd amendment doesn't specify who is to regulate this militia, that the regulation could be subject to whatever legislation is subsequently enacted. I would also presume that since it doesn’t specify any one specific militia, then "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" should also be maintained for the establishment of additional or alternative militia in time of need.

Two sentences. Sorry.
 
rikzilla said:
"Shall not be infringed" seems to me to speak to the fact that a right to bear arms already existed in America, and the 2nd merely is recognising that it shouldn't be infringed since actively bearing a servicable weapon is the most basic activity of a militiaman.

That's actually how all of our rights are treated by the Constitution. They don't come from the government; the Constitution doesn't grant them to us. Our rights are preexisting and independent of the Constitution or the government.
 
Cleopatra said:
So far I haven't read a definite, one sentenced answer to Claus' question.

So, I repeat it. Who regulates militia? The President? The Congress? The local sheriff?? Me? You? Who?

Can we have the answer in one sentence please?

The militia regulates itself.

Concise enough for you?
 
CFLarsen said:
Just to clarify: I understand the word "regulated" as in:

1 a : to govern or direct according to rule b (1) : to bring under the control of law or constituted authority (2) : to make regulations for or concerning (regulate the industries of a country)

2 : to bring order, method, or uniformity to (regulate one's habits)

3 : to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of (regulate the pressure of a tire)


There has to be some sort of regulating body - I cannot see how this can possibly apply to single citizens who are not in some sort of organization that is under regulation of some sort.

Claus, your approach is problematic simply because you're attempting to apply general, modern associations for the term "regulated" to specific historical context. This just isn't a concept that can be shoehorned, or offered up in a single-sentence, cookie-cutter answer as Cleopatra requested. Please be patient, as this requires detail. Sorry for the length...

As shanek correctly noted above:
Originally posted by shanek
Even if we were to take the word "regulate" in its more modern meaning, it's still the case that the Federal government is only limited to regulating the militia to the degree described in Article I Section 8 Clause 16.

To review, Article I Section 8 describes the powers given to Congress, which in this case includes:

  • To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Now, to add appropriate perspective -- US v Miller does a nice job of spelling out the important considerations of historical perspective while rendering judicial precedent (emphasis mine):

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power- 'To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress.' U.S.C.A.Const. art. 1, 8. With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.

Now, before proceeding, another brief review. The Second Amendment consists of two portions, the justification clause, and the rights clause.

Justification: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,

Rights: the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Bearing this fresh in mind, let's review part of the Emerson decision I've previously referenced:

We begin construing the Second Amendment by examining its text: "[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." U.S. Const. amend. II.

1. Substantive Guarantee

a. "People"

The states rights model requires the word "people" to be read as though it were "States" or "States respectively." This would also require a corresponding change in the balance of the text to something like "to provide for the militia to keep and bear arms." That is not only far removed from the actual wording of the Second Amendment, but also would be in substantial tension with Art. 1, § 8, Cl. 16 (Congress has the power "To provide for . . . arming . . . the militia. . ."). For the sophisticated collective rights model to be viable, the word "people" must be read as the words "members of a select militia". The individual rights model, of course, does not require that any special or unique meaning be attributed to the word "people." It gives the same meaning to the words "the people" as used in the Second Amendment phrase "the right of the people" as when used in the exact same phrase in the contemporaneously submitted and ratified First and Fourth Amendments.

[*I've hyperlinked the 1st and 4th for simplicity's sake.]


There is no evidence in the text of the Second Amendment, or any other part of the Constitution, that the words "the people" have a different connotation within the Second Amendment than when employed elsewhere in the Constitution. In fact, the text of the Constitution, as a whole, strongly suggests that the words "the people" have precisely the same meaning within the Second Amendment as without. And, as used throughout the Constitution, "the people" have "rights" and "powers," but federal and state governments only have "powers" or "authority", never "rights." (Moreover, the Constitution's text likewise recognizes not only the difference between the "militia" and "the people" but also between the "militia" which has not been "call[ed] forth" and "the militia, when in actual service."

As affirmed by this judicial precedent, the rights clause is not dependent upon the justification clause in the Second Amendment. It's absolutely clear that the rights of the First and Fourth, respectively, free speech or protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures apply to the individual, and the court's decision goes on to display consistency with previously established precedent concerning "the people" in this regard.

Why is this important? Returning to the detail of the Militia Act which is currently part of federal law, which I will repost here to avoid thread-hopping:

10 U.S.C. § 311

Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are --

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

The unorganized militia, as has already been underscored, consists of the body of the people capable of bearing arms. If Congress had to exercise its power to call up we able-bodied, arms-bearing civilians who are not a part of actual service (e.g. National Guard), they have the ability, as per Art. 1, § 8, Cl. 16 to "regulate" us as they deemed necessary, to repel invasion, etc. Now, this has obviously not happened since the enactment of the currently standing Militia Act.

Based upon judicial precedent, offered with proper historical context, we have the right to keep and bear arms as individuals, and if we're called upon in response to Congressional action, we have the ability to use our arms to come to the nation's defense in whatever way necessary.

Hopefully this offers some necessary perspective, and again I apologize for the length here.
 
CFLarsen said:
...

Who regulates this militia?

Wow, I never wanted to repsond to another CFLarsen thread ever since he said that he would kill anyone he saw onboard an airplane who had a firearm, but I see that no one else has posted this bit of data so here goes anyway.

The US Congress regulates the Militia.

From one of the clauses in Article I Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution:

...

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

...


Subsequent court rulings have upheld this principal.
 
CFLarsen said:
Just to clarify: I understand the word "regulated" as in:

Webster[/I]]Source

There has to be some sort of regulating body - I cannot see how this can possibly apply to single citizens who are not in some sort of organization that is under regulation of some sort.

Well then, you must think the FF were insane! ;)

...since the way YOU read it the 2nd basically says that only a firmly delineated formal militia may bear arms freely...then why do they say that other thingy about "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed"???...sounds to me that if they limited arms to this strict structured militia they'd be doing LOTS of infringing on the rest of us lot.

-z
 
Personally I do not have the education or the experience to analyze and interpret the Constitution of USA. Also, from all the Holly books , it's the Constitution of each country that I respect most.

USA's Constitution is not an easy case. It's an historical text, created in a specific historical frame. However "strange" might appear to the non-americans it seems that it works for the Americans.

So, the rest of us can only discuss about it philosophically and literally.

I do see a problem though that nobody has ever managed to give me a straight answer. I understand which need created the 2nd Amendment. I have a question.

Can somebody name me one incident that citizens used the rights that were given to them by the 2nd Amendment to react to an abuse of power of the central government?
 
Sorry for the second post but I don't wish to edit my previous post.

I am interested in an incident that occured during the last 50 years, or after WWII.
 
Cleopatra said:
So far I haven't read a definite, one sentenced answer to Claus' question.

So, I repeat it. Who regulates militia? The President? The Congress? The local sheriff?? Me? You? Who?

Can we have the answer in one sentence please?


Cleo, my dear, you are being so, so ................. European about this.

I don't think there is or ever was a one sentence answer to your question as the militia's origins go back long before the US existed and both in England and the American colonies it was always a fairly informal organisation. In the colonies which became the states it consisted of every adult white male and even today every adult male between the ages of 18 and 45 (?) is in law a member of the militia ( US Code T.10 s311)(Wikipedia). It seems that both individual states and congress could and can organise and call out the militia.

The relevant provisions in the federal constitution are:-

Section. 8.

Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;


Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

....and......

Clause 1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

The legislation assumes that a militia exists in the states and gives the newly created federal government certain rights over it. Frankly I think the drafting is poor. Clause 16 seems to suggest that congress arms etc the entire militia but shares the government of them with the states. Alternatively one could argue that it only arms that part of the militia that is employed in the service of the US as opposed to the service of the individual state. One could thus argue that the objective of the confusing second amendment is to confirm the right of the individual citizen to bear arms (derived from common law and the UK 1688 bill of rights) with a view to ensuring that individual states have access to an armed force, which could if necessary be used to combat an overmighty central authority.

From a logical point of view the whole thing is a cock up whose only redeeming feature is that it gives us something to argue about on an autumn evening.
 
Cleopatra said:



Can somebody name me one incident that citizens used the rights that were given to them by the 2nd Amendment to react to an abuse of power of the central government?



Waco Texas possibly:D .
 
Nikk, the concept of militia is very ancient and Americans are not the ones that invented it . They are just those who still base on it the idea(?) that they enjoy absolute freedom.

As far as I know ( correct me if I am wrong please) on the Greek island of Crete we have the unique case in Europe of the existence of a body of militia.

For those who don't know. Cretans carry arms and they carry them illegally mostly. So, since they carry arms and the State doesn't dars to take their arms away it has formed a body of militia. For mystery reason that must be cultural, although Cretans are ruthless and they don't respect even their mothers, they are very much afraid of the body of militia and they avoid messing up with them.

Who regulates the Cretan Militia? Ha! The Ministry of Justice. At least typically. Last week that I was in Crete I thought to make an inquiry about the militia. In reality they function with the oral rules of vendetta.

Do I bother? No. I just find amusing the fact that Cretans live with the illusion that they are free just because they carry arms. Once the militia and the law of vendetta appear though they S*** on their pants.

Bottom line: Militia, arms et cetera are nothing but illusions that politicians feed in order to steal the votes of the great unwashed I am talking about Crete now but think about it.
 
Wolverine said:
Now, before proceeding, another brief review. The Second Amendment consists of two portions, the justification clause, and the rights clause.

Justification: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,

Rights: the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

By the way, just so no one gets the wrong idea by reading them, neither clause is actually divided by a comma. In the official language as proposed by Congress, ratified by the States, and recorded in the Congressional Statutes, there is only one comma in the amendment, separating the two clauses from each other. The first and third commas are transcription errors that occured when the Bill of Rights was copied onto parchment. So it would be wrong to try to defer any meaning or significance from their presence.
 
Cleopatra said:
Can somebody name me one incident that citizens used the rights that were given to them by the 2nd Amendment to react to an abuse of power of the central government?

I see a problem with the question. The Constitution does not give us our rights.
 
Cleopatra said:
Can somebody name me one incident that citizens used the rights that were given to them by the 2nd Amendment to react to an abuse of power of the central government?

The Revolution itself is a perfect example of that.

(Oh, and a sticking point with me: the Second Amendment doesn't "grant" us the right to bear arms. We already have it, just from our nature. All the Second Amendment does is forbid the government from infringing it.)
 

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