Michael Brown shooting II

[Skeptical Greg]

What did he say that said he couldn't determine the precise trajectory?

http://www.newsweek.com/what-we-learned-michael-browns-autopsy-265247

.....he ( Parcells ) stressed that he and Dr. Baden could not determine conclusively the trajectories of the bullets that hit Brown—or which direction he was moving—when he was shot. The wounds “could be consistent with going forward or going backward,” Dr. Baden said.

Also, Transcript from: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2014/08/19/inside-private-autopsy-michael-brown?page=1

VAN SUSTEREN: Can you in any way sort of reach a decision whether or not the wound on top of the head and the arms would be consistent with someone being shot as is he going down or someone being shot as he is charging?

BADEN: These wounds could be, again, done in either way, because the head is so mobile up, and the arm, the shooter's arm is so mobile, that they can have many different positions in which you get the same bullet track in the head. But what we can say is that when the bullet wound at the top of the head entered Michael Brown's body, he immediately lost consciousness, collapsed, and died. The mom wanted to know, for example, did he have any pain and suffering? Not after that gunshot wound. And he was then immobile and collapsed immediately on that shot

So there is nothing in Baden's statements that rules out Mike's scenario & diagram, or makes your imaginations more likely..

 

[Mumbles]

Still I think the gist of his point is valid. Most of the investigation details haven't been released, which means that, as has been noted by most of the people that have commented, when reliable facts become available their opinions/guesses might change.

Well, yes, a completed incident report, a report on the gun used, a diagram of the scene, other possible witnesses who would rather not be in the media, an explanation for why Brown took so many shots on his right side, a medical report for Wilson's potential injuries - until we get such things, we're swinging wildly here. I can see quite a few possibilities that could either help or harm Wilson.

 

[johnny karate]

From post 25 above, "...As a freshman, he was in Junior ROTC. His sophomore year he played football. Link"

Okay, so he knew how to charge and tackle. Head down and bust the guy right off his feet.

There goes the "he was bowing in prayer for forgiveness when Wilson executed him" theory.

How about you show me any football player ever in the history of football who charges with his head down from 20 feet away, and then maybe your specious logic might be lent a shred of credence.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I think this is probably closer to the truth that any of the knee-jerk reactions from those who proclaim that he probably has an extensive juvenile record or would have gone on to a life of crime anyway.

Really? And you're basing this on what exactly? Just a gut feeling of yours?

So, you think he was a gentle giant for most of his life, quickly and violently stole some cigars so he could get high, and then went back into gentle giant mode?

Quite frankly, all that just smacks of people desperate to confirm their own biases...

Methinks you just engaged in a bit of that yourself.

 

[Kestrel]

Still I think the gist of his point is valid. Most of the investigation details haven't been released, which means that, as has been noted by most of the people that have commented, when reliable facts become available their opinions/guesses might change.

I do agree that there is a lot of information that we do not yet have.

One thing we do know is that the relationship between the police and this community left a lot to be desired.

 

[Cylinder]

And so the other items I listed, which are also part of a FOIA request, were held back because...?

Specifically, Missouri Revised Statutes 610.100.2, which states:

Each law enforcement agency of this state, of any county, and of any municipality shall maintain records of all incidents reported to the agency, investigations and arrests made by such law enforcement agency. All incident reports and arrest reports shall be open records. Notwithstanding any other provision of law other than the provisions of subsections 4, 5 and 6 of this section or section 320.083, investigative reports of all law enforcement agencies are closed records until the investigation becomes inactive. If any person is arrested and not charged with an offense against the law within thirty days of the person's arrest, the arrest report shall thereafter be a closed record except that the disposition portion of the record may be accessed and except as provided in section 610.120.

The investigation into Brown's strong arm robbery in the grocery store became inactive due to the death of Brown and the decision not to charge Johnson. At that point, the investigative reports became public records.

The investigation of Wilson's use of force is not an inactive investigation, thus the investigative reports are closed records pursuant to the subsection referenced above.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://www.newsweek.com/what-we-learned-michael-browns-autopsy-265247

There are very few Baden quotes in that article and none that say what you claimed.

It's already been addressed that Baden and Purcells were very careful not to give statements regarding the significance of their findings as to what was happening at the time of the shooting.

Also, Transcript from: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/2014/08/19/inside-private-autopsy-michael-brown?page=1

VAN SUSTEREN: Can you in any way sort of reach a decision whether or not the wound on top of the head and the arms would be consistent with someone being shot as is he going down or someone being shot as he is charging?
BADEN: These wounds could be, again, done in either way, because the head is so mobile up, and the arm, the shooter's arm is so mobile, that they can have many different positions in which you get the same bullet track in the head. But what we can say is that when the bullet wound at the top of the head entered Michael Brown's body, he immediately lost consciousness, collapsed, and died. The mom wanted to know, for example, did he have any pain and suffering? Not after that gunshot wound. And he was then immobile and collapsed immediately on that shot.

So there is nothing in Baden's statements that rules out Mike's scenario & diagram, or makes your imaginations more likely..

"Rules out" is not what I asked Mike. I asked him why he conspicuously didn't include a diagram that fit the autopsy evidence. See the green arrow in the last skull? Why avoid showing that trajectory to it's natural point of origin?

In the first and second diagrams Mike posted all the trajectories without any speculated turns. Then when the actual trajectory was described more precisely, all of a sudden his diagrams showed altered bullet paths.

Transcript from the initial press conference:

BADEN: Well, it went in the top and it went slightly to the front, from the middle of the brain to sort of the right side of the brain.

Where is that trajectory without all the fudging to fit a particular narrative?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's also worth noting this from the CNN transcript:

...Leading forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht. Thank you so much for joining us....

WECHT: ... And then a very important point is that this boy, 6'3 with a shot coming around the eye and moving downward, exiting in the jaw and entering above the right clavicle, that clearly is downward. You have someone who is falling. If you want to conjecture, what if he was charging like a mad bull toward an officer with a gun, I find that unlikely. Most likely he was already toppling and his head was pitched forward when that shot was fired and moved in a downward trajectory. That all has to be taken into consideration.

 

[pakeha]

Specifically, Missouri Revised Statutes 610.100.2, which states:



The investigation into Brown's strong arm robbery in the grocery store became inactive due to the death of Brown and the decision not to charge Johnson. At that point, the investigative reports became public records.

The investigation of Wilson's use of force is not an inactive investigation, thus the investigative reports are closed records pursuant to the subsection referenced above.

Thanks for clearing that up, Cylinder.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

The memes that will not die:

1.) Is there actually anyone who believes he was killed, or deserved to be killed by Wilson based on the robbery? Has anyone ever claimed Wilson shot him because of the robbery? Or that it would be appropriate if he did?

2.) Is there anyone who legitimately believes he was charging like a bull with his head down? I suggested he was falling forward into the gunfire as soon as the autopsy image was released, and since then that has only been more and more firmly backed up by Baden, Wecht, and every person in this thread from this "side" I've seen. I admit within the last couple pages I think I finally may have seen someone who is seriously entertaining it... but I'm not sure yet or if they're just dissecting the idea through discussion.

 

[Cain]

Yeah, score one for the "He had it coming" crowd, I guess.

Uh-huh.

However, Brown's status as a "big bully" and the incident at the convenience store don't tell us whether or not his shooting was justified.

No, but it provides context. It also puts to lie any character witnesses coming out of the woodwork saying, "Mike would never resort to physical aggression." He just did, ten minutes earlier.

 

[casebro]

Thanks, TheL8Elvis.







How very odd. I recall reading a family member saying that Brown was so shy that although the family wanted him to, he refused to sign up for football.
Off to hunt down that article.

ETA
Found.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...4d65e6-2257-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

link http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_cbafa12e-7305-5fd7-8e0e-3139f472d130.html

"“Everyone else wanted to be a football player, a basketball player,” said Gerard Fuller, who had known Brown since second grade at Pine Lawn Elementary School. “He wanted to own his own business. He’d say, ‘Let’s make something out of nothing.’”

...

Teachers described Brown as a “gentle giant,” a student who loomed large and didn’t cause trouble. Friends describe him as a quiet person with a wicked sense of humor, one who loved music and had begun to rap. He fought an uphill battle to graduate.

As a freshman, he was in Junior ROTC. His sophomore year he played football. "

Maybe somebody ought to read all the way through?

 

[Mister Earl]

I might as well take a moment to weigh in. I can't remember if I have already. Crazy time at office.

First, I'm not even gonna make a guess as to whether or not the shooting was justified. Not enough data. I'll wait till more is known to go there. We did see the guy apparently do a strong armed robbery. We also know the police in that area have cultivated a steep distrust with the community. For that I say we can't take either side purely at its word.

Second, the issues that concern me are primarily the tactics used against the protesters. Yeah, there were a couple folks in there using the protests to mask vandalism and thievery. I don't think it's acceptable to break out the tear gas and rubber bullets just for that.

Third, the frightfully worrisome effort made by the law to suppress the media. We've had them shuffle reporters around to where the events cannot be seen, we've even seen them tear gas the Al-Jazeera crew and take down their equipment. Extremely unacceptable. I believe this is a crime, or should be a crime, and people need to be held accountable for this.

And finally, Offisher ******* who aimed a loaded weapon at people, threatened to kill them, and refused to identify himself. I understand he was discharged. This is unacceptable. I believe pointing a loaded weapon at someone and threatening to kill them without just cause is a crime, or should be a crime, and he should be in prison awaiting trial. I don't see any mitigating factors that would make that conduct acceptable and/or not a crime.

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10.

I continue to watch the events down there with extreme interest and concern.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The memes that will not die:

1.) Is there actually anyone who believes he was killed, or deserved to be killed by Wilson based on the robbery? Has anyone ever claimed Wilson shot him because of the robbery? Or that it would be appropriate if he did?

Not exactly, but that's a cop out given how many people have exaggerated that store video into things like: Brown was a violent felon destined for a life of crime.

2.) Is there anyone who legitimately believes he was charging like a bull with his head down? I suggested he was falling forward into the gunfire as soon as the autopsy image was released, and since then that has only been more and more firmly backed up by Baden, Wecht, and every person in this thread from this "side" I've seen. I admit within the last couple pages I think I finally may have seen someone who is seriously entertaining it... but I'm not sure yet or if they're just dissecting the idea through discussion....

How do you square this with the claims that continue saying Brown was threateningly coming toward Wilson?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

..., but it provides context. It also puts to lie any character witnesses coming out of the woodwork saying, "Mike would never resort to physical aggression." He just did, ten minutes earlier.

Care to quote the post that actually says this?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

l... His sophomore year he played football. "

Maybe somebody ought to read all the way through?

But Skeptic Tank says no one is making the charging with his head down claim.

 

[Cain]

Care to quote the post that actually says this?

Are you serious? From the Washington Post:

‘The gentle giant’

Trying to piece together the incident that killed Brown has been tough for his friends and family. Seeing Brown on the street, he looked intimidating. He was a big man. But he was not threatening, they said.


The county prosecutor said Brown had no adult criminal history. And Brown’s family didn’t think it was in his nature.

“We called him the gentle giant. He was a gentle giant,” said Charles Ewing, Brown’s uncle.

His family tried to get him to play football. Brown was too timid for the sport, Ewing said.

“He had never gotten into a fight in his entire life,” said Duane Finnie, a family friend.

At school, he was that kid who was full of jokes and trying to make others laugh.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...4d65e6-2257-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html

 

[casebro]

I might as well take a moment to weigh in. I can't remember if I have already. Crazy time at office.

First, I'm not even gonna make a guess as to whether or not the shooting was justified. Not enough data. I'll wait till more is known to go there. We did see the guy apparently do a strong armed robbery. We also know the police in that area have cultivated a steep distrust with the community. For that I say we can't take either side purely at its word.

Second, the issues that concern me are primarily the tactics used against the protesters. Yeah, there were a couple folks in there using the protests to mask vandalism and thievery. I don't think it's acceptable to break out the tear gas and rubber bullets just for that.

Third, the frightfully worrisome effort made by the law to suppress the media. We've had them shuffle reporters around to where the events cannot be seen, we've even seen them tear gas the Al-Jazeera crew and take down their equipment. Extremely unacceptable. I believe this is a crime, or should be a crime, and people need to be held accountable for this.

And finally, Offisher ******* who aimed a loaded weapon at people, threatened to kill them, and refused to identify himself. I understand he was discharged. This is unacceptable. I believe pointing a loaded weapon at someone and threatening to kill them without just cause is a crime, or should be a crime, and he should be in prison awaiting trial. I don't see any mitigating factors that would make that conduct acceptable and/or not a crime.

I continue to watch the events down there with extreme interest and concern.

Mister Earl, FYI, there is another thread specifically about "the disturbances in Ferguson".

Edited by LashL: 

Edited to properly mask profanity in quote.

 

[Mister Earl]

Ah. We're separating the protests and the shootings into different discussions? Ok, my mistake. That seems like a good idea, actually.

 

[johnny karate]

Really? And you're basing this on what exactly? Just a gut feeling of yours?

No, I base it on the recollections from people like former teachers who described him as a quiet person who didn't cause trouble.

So, you think he was a gentle giant for most of his life, quickly and violently stole some cigars so he could get high, and then went back into gentle giant mode?

No, of course I don't think that. That would be stupid. Almost as stupid as someone who looks at a single bad act and thinks it defines a person.

See, people tend to be complex. They can be many things. Some of them contradictory.

It's entirely possible Michael Brown was gentle and quiet in the eyes of a lot of people, but was also capable of occasional violence and bad behavior, and therefore was perhaps not some irredeemably horrible person. You know, like a lot of people are.

Methinks you just engaged in a bit of that yourself.

No, I haven't. What I've engaged in is understanding that a single incident in someone's life isn't enough information by which to make sweeping generalizations about them. It's called "critical thinking". Feel free to give it a try.