Split Thread Michael Brown and Katrina

[RandFan]

I've never heard anybody accuse FEMA director Brown of being criminally negligent. Not literally anyway.

Let me be the first.

FACTS:

• A direct hit by a hurricane was at the top of the list of things for Brown to take care of.
• Brown did NOT take care of it. People died even though Browne knew it was likely they would.

That is criminal negligence. There is no argument here. He was the head of an agency that determined that a direct hurricane on Louisiana would result in a catastrophe the like of a nuclear explosion in New York.

Don't believe me? Her's an article from the National Geograpic printed one year before Katrina.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

Read it again. And again. It doesn't matter how many times you read it, the facts cannot change.

Now, look at the time line for Katrina (wiki for info only, sources provided on request though they are at the bottom of the article).

1. America spent enormous resources to assess potential disasters.
2. America spent enormous resources to create a system that could save lives.
3. Brown knew the risks of a hit on Louisiana (it was his job to know).
4. Brown knew there was a significant risk that Katrina would strike Louisiana.
5. Brown did nothing.

Brown (and Bush) are criminally negligent. Both showed depraved indifference.

Scapegoating of Ray Nagin in 3... 2.. 1.

 

[RandFan]

I've never heard anybody accuse FEMA director Brown of being criminally negligent. Not literally anyway.

Let me be the first.

FACTS:

• A direct hit by a hurricane was at the top of the list of things for Brown to take care of.
• Brown did NOT take care of it. People died even though Browne knew it was likely they would.

That is criminal negligence. There is no argument here. He was the head of an agency that determined that a direct hurricane on Louisiana would result in a catastrophe the like of a nuclear explosion in New York.

Don't believe me? Here's an article from the National Geographic printed one year before Katrina.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

Read it again. And again. It doesn't matter how many times you read it, the facts cannot change.

Now, look at the time line for Katrina (wiki for info only, sources provided on request though they are at the bottom of the article).

1. America spent enormous resources to assess potential disasters.
2. America spent enormous resources to create a system that could save lives.
3. Brown knew the risks of a hit on Louisiana (it was his job to know).
4. Brown knew there was a significant risk that Katrina would strike Louisiana.
5. Brown did nothing.

Brown (and Bush) are criminally negligent. Both showed depraved indifference.

Scapegoating of Ray Nagin in 3... 2.. 1.

 

[RandFan]

double post.

 

[davefoc]

Let me be the first.
...

1. Brown did nothing.

...

He did hire a politically connected company that had no buses to provide buses in the event of an emergency. Interestingly a company that didn't have any buses wasn't able to provide buses in an emergency. And then his organization, ignored, the offer for the use of buses from companies that had buses when the crisis was unfolding.

ETA: But the culpability of Brown with regard to making politically driven decisions is mitigated by the likelihood that selecting politically connected vendors wasn't exactly a unique action by the Bush administration and it is likely that Brown's actions on that were driven from above.

 

[RandFan]

He did hire a politically connected company that had no buses to provide buses in the event of an emergency. Interestingly a company that didn't have any buses wasn't able to provide buses in an emergency. And then his organization, ignored, the offer for the use of buses from companies that had buses when the crisis was unfolding.

ETA: But the culpability of Brown with regard to making politically driven decisions is mitigated by the likelihood that selecting politically connected vendors wasn't exactly a unique action by the Bush administration and it is likely that Brown's actions on that were driven from above.

Agreed. Fair points. I was defending Bush on this forum when I discovered just how serious of an issue FEMA took the threat. I guess I'm a bit jaded. Cronyism and incompetent appointees is nothing new. FTR: I do think Nagin is culpable I just don't think his poor response gets the feds out of hot water.

Brown had been warned. He knew the risks. He chose not to act in the face of a major hurricane warning and his own department's assessment of the likely outcome of that event (their words were "dire threat").

Would the department head of another administration have done the same as Brown?

 

[Foolmewunz]

He did hire a politically connected company that had no buses to provide buses in the event of an emergency. Interestingly a company that didn't have any buses wasn't able to provide buses in an emergency. And then his organization, ignored, the offer for the use of buses from companies that had buses when the crisis was unfolding.

ETA: But the culpability of Brown with regard to making politically driven decisions is mitigated by the likelihood that selecting politically connected vendors wasn't exactly a unique action by the Bush administration and it is likely that Brown's actions on that were driven from above.

Brown's actions were driven from above and from within. Being a beneficiary of the cronyism and electoral spoils system, he naturally continued with that modus operandi.

Political appointments (supporters, party members who've earned their spurs, old school cums) should be banned. Not just heads of NASA and FEMA, but the Obama move to appoint Kerry particularly stands out. Hillary, it could be argued, had huge experience in matters of State from her years as "the other woman" in the White House. I also have to say that the Dems are apparently worse at this when it comes to SoS. It's a political plum to them, not a position where hiring is based on merit.

 

[kookbreaker]

Agreed. Fair points. I was defending Bush on this forum when I discovered just how serious of an issue FEMA took the threat. I guess I'm a bit jaded. Cronyism and incompetent appointees is nothing new. FTR: I do think Nagin is culpable I just don't think his poor response gets the feds out of hot water.

Brown had been warned. He knew the risks. He chose not to act in the face of a major hurricane warning and his own department's assessment of the likely outcome of that event (their words were "dire threat").

Would the department head of another administration have done the same as Brown?

Can't say, but it is apparent that if Brownie were put into the same exact situation again he'd still react badly.

 

[sunmaster14]

Let me be the first.

FACTS:

• A direct hit by a hurricane was at the top of the list of things for Brown to take care of.
• Brown did NOT take care of it. People died even though Browne knew it was likely they would.

That is criminal negligence. There is no argument here. He was the head of an agency that determined that a direct hurricane on Louisiana would result in a catastrophe the like of a nuclear explosion in New York.

Don't believe me? Her's an article from the National Geograpic printed one year before Katrina.

Read it again. And again. It doesn't matter how many times you read it, the facts cannot change.

Now, look at the time line for Katrina (wiki for info only, sources provided on request though they are at the bottom of the article).

1. America spent enormous resources to assess potential disasters.
2. America spent enormous resources to create a system that could save lives.
3. Brown knew the risks of a hit on Louisiana (it was his job to know).
4. Brown knew there was a significant risk that Katrina would strike Louisiana.
5. Brown did nothing.

Brown (and Bush) are criminally negligent. Both showed depraved indifference.

Scapegoating of Ray Nagin in 3... 2.. 1.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>

Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

I may as well find out what exactly you expected Brown to do that he didn't do. Keeping in mind of course that FEMA's main function is to distribute funds, not do evacuation or search and rescue, since those are properly state and local responsibilities.

 

[kookbreaker]

Keeping in mind of course that FEMA's main function is to distribute funds, not do evacuation or search and rescue, since those are properly state and local responsibilities.

FEMA is supposed to coordinate aid and rescue efforts. They do not just distribute funds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic...e_Katrina#Federal_Emergency_Management_Agency

 

[Crossbow]

I am sure that I am not the only one who recalls this lionization:

You're doing a heck of a job Brownie!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Let me be the first.

FACTS:

• A direct hit by a hurricane was at the top of the list of things for Brown to take care of.
• Brown did NOT take care of it. People died even though Browne knew it was likely they would.

That is criminal negligence. There is no argument here.

All these things also apply to Ray Nagin, the black mayor or NO at the time.

Just sayin'.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

He did hire a politically connected company that had no buses to provide buses in the event of an emergency. Interestingly a company that didn't have any buses wasn't able to provide buses in an emergency. And then his organization, ignored, the offer for the use of buses from companies that had buses when the crisis was unfolding.

ETA: But the culpability of Brown with regard to making politically driven decisions is mitigated by the likelihood that selecting politically connected vendors wasn't exactly a unique action by the Bush administration and it is likely that Brown's actions on that were driven from above.

You know who did have buses? School buses? By the hundreds? And chose to let them sit in a parking lot and be flooded?

If you guessed New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin, then you can have any prize from the top shelf!

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Did this Michael Brown have his hands up? Or down, like the other one?

 

[kookbreaker]

Ray Nagin's has his share of culpability in this, but he is far from being the only person to blame. FEMA's failures effected much more than NO. Other states got hit you know.

Remember that FEMA is there so that local governmental failures don't result in weeks of power losses, deaths, and poor rescue and recovery efforts.

 

[RandFan]

Keeping in mind of course that FEMA's main function is to distribute funds, not do evacuation or search and rescue, since those are properly state and local responsibilities.

Keeping in mind that this was a disaster that we knew was likely and killed 1,833 people.

Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, Public Law 100-707, signed into law November 23, 1988; amended the Disaster Relief Act of 1974, Public Law 93-288. It created the system in place today by which a presidential disaster declaration of an emergency triggers financial and physical assistance through the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).

Let's look at what FEMA did to prepare for Typhoon Dolphin

Here’s a quick snapshot of what FEMA and some of our federal partners are doing to get ready:

• FEMA is coordinating closely with the National Weather Service to monitor the storm’s track as it moves westward toward the islands of Guam and Rota.
• FEMA’s Regional Response Coordination Center in Oakland is working to organize resources such as:
  • Incident Management Assistance Teams: These are rapid response teams that are sent to work alongside FEMA’s state, local, or tribal partners. They help identify needs and coordinate federal support that may be needed. One of these teams is already in the area and a second team is on standby.
  • Mobile Emergency Response Support units: These teams provide communications support to states and territories impacted by disasters. We currently have personnel and equipment deployed to Guam.
• Department of Health and Human Services has deployed a Disaster Medical Assistance Team composed of emergency medical specialists to support operations in heavily impacted area.
• United States Army Corps of Engineers has deployed four subject matter experts to Guam to provide support for emergency power and debris management. They have also prepared a 16 member Power Response Team, which provide technical expertise and perform assessments to determine needs at critical public facilities during emergencies.
• The United States Coast Guard is assessing the status of ports as the storm moves through.

As the storm progresses, we’ll continue to make sure we’re ready to support the citizens and first responders that may be impacted.

So, you are saying that FEMA's hands were tied and that Brown could not mobolize assistance before the hurricane? Or are you saying that he DID mobolize assistance before the hurricane?

 

[RandFan]

Keeping in mind of course that FEMA's main function is to distribute funds, not do evacuation or search and rescue, since those are properly state and local responsibilities.

1.) Arrange for transportation to get people out. There were in fact plenty of buses.

2.) Have a plan for where to put people.

3.) Have water and food in forward positions ready for distribution.

 

[RandFan]

FTR: I do think Nagin is culpable I just don't think his poor response gets the feds out of hot water.

All these things also apply to Ray Nagin, the black mayor or NO at the time.

Just sayin'.

And I said that Nagin is Culpable. My point is that scape goating Nagin won't remove the stench from Brown and Bush.

 

[RandFan]

Bush declared four days after the storm, “I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees” that gushed deadly floodwaters into New Orleans. But the transcripts and video show there was plenty of talk about that possibility — and Bush was worried too.

That was a lie. Not a mistake but a willful lie.

Video shows Bush got explicit Katrina warning

 

[Psi Baba]

I was really ticked off when U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff made the comment on live television that “No one could have foreseen this.” Here is a bit of the foresight that we did have about what could happen (taken from a blog I wrote a few years ago. I wrote the following paragraph to make a point about something else. The rest of the blog is actually irrelevant here):

Prior to the Hurricane Katrina disaster in August 2005, several reports, studies, models, and even television documentaries had been made which, we later came to learn, accurately described the level of devastation from such an event. Louisiana State University in conjunction with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers developed a model and published a report in 2002 predicting the effects of a category 5 hurricane striking New Orleans; the Houston Chronicle and the New Orleans Times-Picayune published articles in 2001 and 2002, respectively, on just what would happen were a powerful hurricane to strike New Orleans; National Geographic had published a story in 2004 describing a hypothetical hurricane strike on New Orleans that was so prescient as to eerily appear to be actually describing the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina; and the first episode of the Weather Channel’s then-new series “It Could Happen Tomorrow”, was already in the can by mid-2005 and depicted what would happen if a category 5 hurricane made a direct hit on New Orleans. Hurricane Katrina struck before the episode ever aired.

 

[RandFan]

I was really ticked off when U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff made the comment on live television that “No one could have foreseen this.” Here is a bit of the foresight that we did have about what could happen (taken from a blog I wrote a few years ago. I wrote the following paragraph to make a point about something else. The rest of the blog is actually irrelevant here):

Prior to the Hurricane Katrina disaster in August 2005, several reports, studies, models, and even television documentaries had been made which, we later came to learn, accurately described the level of devastation from such an event. Louisiana State University in conjunction with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers developed a model and published a report in 2002 predicting the effects of a category 5 hurricane striking New Orleans; the Houston Chronicle and the New Orleans Times-Picayune published articles in 2001 and 2002, respectively, on just what would happen were a powerful hurricane to strike New Orleans; National Geographic had published a story in 2004 describing a hypothetical hurricane strike on New Orleans that was so prescient as to eerily appear to be actually describing the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina; and the first episode of the Weather Channel’s then-new series “It Could Happen Tomorrow”, was already in the can by mid-2005 and depicted what would happen if a category 5 hurricane made a direct hit on New Orleans. Hurricane Katrina struck before the episode ever aired.

Imagine Bush received warning of 9/11 and he chose to defer to the State of NY for disaster preparedness and didn't do anything other than offer financial assistance?