Mexico's Outrage . . .

[xjx388]

The income inequality in Mexico isn't very different to the income inequality in the US

Well, maybe income inequality isn't the right phrase. When almost half of your country lives in poverty, that sounds like pretty bad inequality to me. I'm not saying the US is a paragon of income equality, but it is much better in that regard than Mexico -which is why so many Mexicans risk their lives to get to the US.
And let's expand this a little bit. If you are a poor person in Mexico, your life sucks. Sure there are some government help programs but they are clearly not enough. You don't have good roads, access to good transportation, secure housing, That half of Mexico that lives in poverty actually lives in third-world conditions -especially in the South of Mexico where poverty is even worse.

Sorry, but if you compare the poor of Mexico to those of the US and Canada, there is no way you can argue that Mexico is to the US as the US is to Canada. That's what I'm getting at.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

When almost half of your country lives in poverty, that sounds like pretty bad inequality to me.

That depends on how much money everybody else has, doesn't it? That being the definition of the word "inequality".

I'm not saying the US is a paragon of income equality, but it is much better in that regard than Mexico -which is why so many Mexicans risk their lives to get to the US.

As the figures show, the inequality in the two countries is similar.

You've said that you don't think "income equality" is the right phrase, yet you keep using it. Why not instead look for a phrase that actually expresses what you are trying to say?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well, maybe income inequality isn't the right phrase. When almost half of your country lives in poverty, that sounds like pretty bad inequality to me. I'm not saying the US is a paragon of income equality, but it is much better in that regard than Mexico -which is why so many Mexicans risk their lives to get to the US.
And let's expand this a little bit. If you are a poor person in Mexico, your life sucks. Sure there are some government help programs but they are clearly not enough. You don't have good roads, access to good transportation, secure housing, That half of Mexico that lives in poverty actually lives in third-world conditions -especially in the South of Mexico where poverty is even worse.

Sorry, but if you compare the poor of Mexico to those of the US and Canada, there is no way you can argue that Mexico is to the US as the US is to Canada. That's what I'm getting at.

Maybe I'm using the wrong words but I am still right in what I say. That's the argument you are going for? Fair enough. Good luck with that.

Mexico is poorer than the US by about a factor of 4.5. They are 91st in the world in terms of wealth per capita.

Poverty has nothing to do with inequality. They are completely different things measured differently.

As for where the poor are worse or better off - Mexico now has universal health care so that's one area where they would appear to be ahead of their neighbours.

In fact along the borders the people looking for a bargain or to get something they can't back home may well be American residents looking for hospital treatment.

 

[dudalb]

TO the OP: do you think that insulting the President of Mexico with a tweet and a constant stream of insulting remakrs about the Mexican people is a smart way of conducting diplomacy.

 

[xjx388]

That depends on how much money everybody else has, doesn't it? That being the definition of the word "inequality".

I think more than that, inequality would imply what their money can get them. Go to Mexico City one day and marvel at the contrast between rich and poor often separated by nothing but a thin wall. On one side, beautiful homes, nice cars and green grass. The other side? A shanty town.

I

As the figures show, the inequality in the two countries is similar.

And beyond the figures, the number and status of the poor is markedly different. The figures don't reflect the fact that much of Mexico lacks functioning infrastructure: no running water, no sanitation, impassable roads. But not the rich neighborhoods. The contrast is just heartbreaking. America certainly has it's contrasts but none so stark as in Mexico.

You've said that you don't think "income equality" is the right phrase, yet you keep using it. Why not instead look for a phrase that actually expresses what you are trying to say?

Screw phrases: The poor people of Mexico are exploited by the rich people of Mexico to a degree that is pretty sickening by US standards. Keeping the status quo between the two countries only perpetuates the exploitation. Maybe it's time we shake up the status quo: make the rich people of Mexico mad enough at us to stay home and improve things in their own country. If we lose some big screen TV and Louis Vuitton sales in the process, BFD.

 

[theprestige]

TO the OP: do you think that insulting the President of Mexico with a tweet and a constant stream of insulting remakrs about the Mexican people is a smart way of conducting diplomacy.

Nobody buys a muscle car looking for good gas mileage.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I think more than that, inequality would imply what their money can get them. Go to Mexico City one day and marvel at the contrast between rich and poor often separated by nothing but a thin wall. On one side, beautiful homes, nice cars and green grass. The other side? A shanty town.

I

And beyond the figures, the number and status of the poor is markedly different. The figures don't reflect the fact that much of Mexico lacks functioning infrastructure: no running water, no sanitation, impassable roads. But not the rich neighborhoods. The contrast is just heartbreaking. America certainly has it's contrasts but none so stark as in Mexico.



Screw phrases: The poor people of Mexico are exploited by the rich people of Mexico to a degree that is pretty sickening by US standards. Keeping the status quo between the two countries only perpetuates the exploitation. Maybe it's time we shake up the status quo: make the rich people of Mexico mad enough at us to stay home and improve things in their own country. If we lose some big screen TV and Louis Vuitton sales in the process, BFD.

Yeah, I really think you need to find a phrase other than "inequality", as a certain Princess Bride quote is increasingly relevant.

 

[Dr. Keith]

So people who I have spoken with who say we need to not piss off Mexico so that they don't stop coming over here is a strawman?

No, they just don't have a grasp of how minor that is in the overall trade between Mexico and the US. Should this discussion be limited to what your friends think the problem is? If so, boring thread.

 

[Arcade22]

I just love the amount of mental acrobatics you have to engage in to conclude that a border wall is good for the Mexicans!

Honestly if this was even remotely close to being true it wouldn't be hard to convince the Mexicans to pay for the wall. Maybe even all of it!

 

[chrispy]

nah

Those Mexican Nationals that come to buy the things they can't find in Mexico can only do so by exploiting the majority of Mexicans who live in poverty.

Ok. What do you want me to buy? I can walk out of my house right now and find everything you have in the US. Computer? got 'em. Video game consoles? Got 'em. Designer clothes? Got 'em. Everything. As Skeptic Ginger said, this is not why Mexico is the 3rd largest trading partner with the USA and is actually a rather silly statement to make.

BTW, I live in a pretty remote area here in Mexico 6-8 months out of the year. I live the rest of the year in a remote area of Guatemala, and THAT is another story...

 

[BobTheCoward]

I need to see examples of people claiming we should oppose Trump policies because it will lead to less Mexican tourism.

 

[Beerina]

Do you really think our third largest trading partner consists of Mexicans shopping at the border?


You need to look up the definition of a straw man argument.


So now it's only the rich Mexicans who buy goods in the border cities which account for our third largest trade partner.


Doesn't it get boring in that black and white world you live in? Accodring to this data the gap between the rich and poor isn't all that different between Mexico and the US.


So those 11 million undocumented immigrants living here are going to be offended so much they'll go home?


Trump is a walking diplomatic disaster and we've only begun to see the damage. He's incompetent and that's not going to change.

Gap between rich and poor is irrelevant. One cares about the average person's health, wealth, and longevity. Clearly there is a big difference between the two (although I understand Mexico may be fatter than the US.)

 

[TragicMonkey]

I have observed that many people who oppose Trump's policies regarding the wall and the import tax (a matter which hits home for me) keep referring to the idea that Trump's actions will result in pissing off Mexico and the Mexican Nationals who come do all their shopping here. This will result in them not coming and spending their money here anymore and to initiate a trade war with us. These are usually people I know who are on the left side of the political spectrum.

What I don't understand is why these left-leaning people want to appease Mexico? Forget all the rhetoric about security and "America First." The truth is that Mexico is one of the most extreme examples of income inequality in the Americas. Those Mexican Nationals that come to buy the things they can't find in Mexico can only do so by exploiting the majority of Mexicans who live in poverty. The whole reason we have a problem with illegal immigration in the first place is that the people of Mexico are oppressed and exploited. Shouldn't we want the rich Mexicans to stay home and spread their wealth in their own country, even if it means we lose out on some of their spending?

I say if the Mexicans get angry and don't want to come here to spend as much money any more, that's a good thing for Mexico and by extension, the US. They will stay home and develop the infrastructure and economy to create/import the goods they want at home which will create jobs for the oppressed poor people of Mexico. In turn, those people won't need to flee across the border to us. Forcing Mexico to take care of Mexico could be the best thing to happen for all of us.

I didn't realize the point of being friendly was to get something out of it. Is that how you treat all people, or just your neighbors?

 

[Minoosh]

Sorry, but if you compare the poor of Mexico to those of the US and Canada, there is no way you can argue that Mexico is to the US as the US is to Canada. That's what I'm getting at.

You're correct.

 

[casebro]

Mexico may be our #3 trading partner, but we have to be their #1. Time for them to kow-tow to Trump.

 

[xjx388]

Yeah, I really think you need to find a phrase other than "inequality", as a certain Princess Bride quote is increasingly relevant.

If you don't think that the differences in opportunity and access to wealth between Mexico's poor and rich is an example of inequality, and a pretty extreme one at that, then I'll use another word. Let's call it an example of "klarfrajas." Does it matter what I call it? I think I've made it clear what I'm getting at.

 

[xjx388]

Ok. What do you want me to buy? I can walk out of my house right now and find everything you have in the US. Computer? got 'em. Video game consoles? Got 'em. Designer clothes? Got 'em. Everything. As Skeptic Ginger said, this is not why Mexico is the 3rd largest trading partner with the USA and is actually a rather silly statement to make.

. Interesting. I've been all over Mexico but I've never seen a retail environment that is comparable to what we have even here in a small border city like McAllen, Texas to say nothing about bigger cities close to the border like San Antonio. If what you say is true, then it makes me wonder why so many Mexican citizens come here to shop. Maybe it's cheaper here and since they can afford to travel, they'd rather ship here where the selection is more diverse. I don't know. What I do know is that losing that business is a big concern to the Mayors and retail industry here on the border.

 

[xjx388]

No, they just don't have a grasp of how minor that is in the overall trade between Mexico and the US. Should this discussion be limited to what your friends think the problem is? If so, boring thread.

No, feel free to broaden it if you want. My point, though, isn't really about the larger relationship between the US and Mexico. it's about the disconnect. One one hand, these people denounce klarfrajas/wealth inequality/economic unfairness/etc and on the other they want to continue to benefit from a system that exhibits a high degree of economic exploitation.

 

[Crossbow]

No, feel free to broaden it if you want. My point, though, isn't really about the larger relationship between the US and Mexico. it's about the disconnect. One one hand, these people denounce klarfrajas/wealth inequality/economic unfairness/etc and on the other they want to continue to benefit from a system that exhibits a high degree of economic exploitation.

It is nice to see that you have so much concern for the people of Mexico.

 

[Cavemonster]

I just love the amount of mental acrobatics you have to engage in to conclude that a border wall is good for the Mexicans!

Honestly if this was even remotely close to being true it wouldn't be hard to convince the Mexicans to pay for the wall. Maybe even all of it!

The wall I expect Trump will build won't be much good, but a different president could have made a good argument to Mexico for a large cooinvestment on increased border security.

The largest problem in Mexico right now is the power wielded by drug cartels. Violence, political corruption economic instability, all stem from or exacerbated by the cartels.

There are two things that the cartels depend on for their power.

1) The profits from a steady flow of drugs into the US. Cut the drug routes into the US and you disempower the cartels massively.

2) The availability of weapons. Good statistics are hard to find, but some significant amount of the weapons used by cartels originate in the US. A major effort to stem this would again cut the power of cartels.

Some other president may have announced that they would be working with the Mexican government to bolster the security of our border for the good of both nations and tactfully, quietly at the bargaining table, insist on Mexico paying the lion's share of the project.

Republicans want to paint the left as being blind to or even against security as opposed to being against empty wasteful monuments and lack of nuance or diplomacy.