Mexican Flag flies over US Flag

JEROME DA GNOME said:
Disrespectful.
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I don't really see improper display of the flag as disrespectful at all, if the intent is not disrespectful. I understand that there are formal rules for how a flag is to be displayed, but I have to revert to the fact that the flag is just a cloth that symbolizes something. Display of the flag is patriotic and pro-American because that is the message it sends.

I'm never a fan of ignorance, but I also think that it's idiotic to make ceremonial formalities or arbitrary customs count for more than what the person is trying to say. You can't really expect everyone to be well versed on all the aspects of flag display.

When somebody flies the flag improperly with an intent to show patriotism it's not something which I think is disrespectful in and of itself. It could be something as simple as "Look I fly an Irish flag from my pub because it's supposed to be Irish-themed and that's the primary thing I want to display. I figured I'd put an American flag up too just to be patriotic and acknowledge my love for this land. I didn't realize that flying the American flag lower somehow is supposed to be disrespectful. I didn't think of that."

For that matter, if somebody wants to attach a flag to their clothing to show that they're american or if somebody puts up an american flag and it's to the wrong side of another flag pole or if they fold it incorrectly or have it flying past standard astrological sunset without illumination I do not consider that disrespectful either.

The cloth is not what people fought and died for. They flag doesn't care what you do with it. It's only the symbol and the message it sends. People fought and died for principals, not the visual symbol of them. If need be, I would have no problem defaming a flag in order to bandage a bad wound, if that was the only cloth around. I'd even burn a flag if I were lost at sea at night and it was the only thing dry and flammable I had when I saw an aircraft flying by.


I think that it's pretty obvious what a person is trying to say if they take a flag out burn it and stomp on it. They're trying to show hatred and disrespect. It should be equally obvious what message somebody is trying to send when they put a flag out infront of their house, but on the wrong side of the door. The message is "I'm proud of my country, but I'm not a trained color guard and I might be slightly dyslexic"
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
I don't really see improper display of the flag as disrespectful at all, if the intent is not disrespectful. I understand that there are formal rules for how a flag is to be displayed, but I have to revert to the fact that the flag is just a cloth that symbolizes something. Display of the flag is patriotic and pro-American because that is the message it sends.

I'm never a fan of ignorance, but I also think that it's idiotic to make ceremonial formalities or arbitrary customs count for more than what the person is trying to say. You can't really expect everyone to be well versed on all the aspects of flag display.

When somebody flies the flag improperly with an intent to show patriotism it's not something which I think is disrespectful in and of itself. It could be something as simple as "Look I fly an Irish flag from my pub because it's supposed to be Irish-themed and that's the primary thing I want to display. I figured I'd put an American flag up too just to be patriotic and acknowledge my love for this land. I didn't realize that flying the American flag lower somehow is supposed to be disrespectful. I didn't think of that."

For that matter, if somebody wants to attach a flag to their clothing to show that they're american or if somebody puts up an american flag and it's to the wrong side of another flag pole or if they fold it incorrectly or have it flying past standard astrological sunset without illumination I do not consider that disrespectful either.

The cloth is not what people fought and died for. They flag doesn't care what you do with it. It's only the symbol and the message it sends. People fought and died for principals, not the visual symbol of them. If need be, I would have no problem defaming a flag in order to bandage a bad wound, if that was the only cloth around. I'd even burn a flag if I were lost at sea at night and it was the only thing dry and flammable I had when I saw an aircraft flying by.


I think that it's pretty obvious what a person is trying to say if they take a flag out burn it and stomp on it. They're trying to show hatred and disrespect. It should be equally obvious what message somebody is trying to send when they put a flag out infront of their house, but on the wrong side of the door. The message is "I'm proud of my country, but I'm not a trained color guard and I might be slightly dyslexic"
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I understand what you are saying, and I do agree in principal. The problem is that symbols are just that, symbols. They mean something else. If I were to go to Germany for example, I would not give the hand symbol of the American O.K. It means A-hole in Germany. Now, in this example one could easily be forgiven for their transgression. A flag is universally known for centuries as a powerful symbol. Height is also a universally known attribute of superiority when viewing symbols in conjunction. For someone to disregard these commonly known facts about symbols in the context of the story is disrespectful.
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
I understand what you are saying, and I do agree in principal. The problem is that symbols are just that, symbols. They mean something else. If I were to go to Germany for example, I would not give the hand symbol of the American O.K. It means A-hole in Germany. Now, in this example one could easily be forgiven for their transgression. A flag is universally known for centuries as a powerful symbol. Height is also a universally known attribute of superiority when viewing symbols in conjunction. For someone to disregard these commonly known facts about symbols in the context of the story is disrespectful.
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Right... but I don't see the display in this case as disrespectful or the person who cut it down doing anything great or pro-American. He should have had the common sense to see it was intended as just a patriotic addition of the American flag to a flag which was supposed to just represent Mexican heritage.

What the guy did was extreme to the point of being ridiculous. He should have just said something to the store owner like "I noticed you're displaying the Mexican flag flying above the US flag on your pole out there. I wanted to point out that there are some customs as to how you're supposed to display flags and it's considered improper to fly the flag of a foreign nation over the US flag like that. I appreciate your patriotic display but you should change that because it can be taken to imply disrespect. And I'm sure you don't want anyone to think that's what you're trying to say."

I mean honestly... do you really think that this is a message of degradation of the US and Mexican power over the United States? That's bull.


I like to be called by my proper name. My last name is Packard. It's pronounced Pack-erd. On occasion somebody says Puh-card. I don't blow up at them. I just correct them. I just assume it's just a mistake, which is what it always has been. I don't feel disrespected.
 
JOKER said:
Saw this this morning. If I remember my US Flag flying rules, it is illegal for any flag to fly higher than the US Flag inside the United States except for certain Navy services. Anyways, an upset veteran cut down both flags and took the American flag with him.

Of course CNN is quoting a Betsy Ross section of a website for their info. :p

CNN Video
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Yep...that is illegal.

So?

So is being a traitor and being president.

Whatcher point?

Tokie
 
DRBUZZ0 said:
Right... but I don't .

What the guy did was extreme to the point of being ridiculous. He should have just said something to the store owner like "I noticed you're displaying the Mexican flag flying above the US flag on your pole out there. I wanted to point out that there are some customs as to how you're supposed to display flags and it's considered improper to fly the flag of a foreign nation over the US flag like that. I appreciate your patriotic display but you should change that because it can be taken to imply disrespect. And I'm sure you don't want anyone to think that's what you're trying to say."
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Wow! Good idear!

If only Jefferson, and Madison and Washington and that guy with the silly signature had thought of this pacific approach back in 17-ought-75!

Tokie
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
I understand what you are saying, and I do agree in principal. The problem is that symbols are just that, symbols. They mean something else.
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They mean what you want them to mean. No more, no less. To take your "okay" symbol analogy a step further, I can see a German being upset at you because he thought you were calling him an a-hole. Upon further discussion, however, when it turns out that you weren't, a rational person wouldn't be upset anymore.

"Why are you calling me an a-hole?"
"I wasn't."
"That's what that gesture means here."
"I didn't know that. That's not what it means in my country."
"Oh, okay."

It's the intent that matters. Being offended by someone not following or not being aware of a bunch of arbitrary and obscure rules when there is no disrespect intended is just silly.
 
tsg said:
They mean what you want them to mean. No more, no less. To take your "okay" symbol analogy a step further, I can see a German being upset at you because he thought you were calling him an a-hole. Upon further discussion, however, when it turns out that you weren't, a rational person wouldn't be upset anymore.

"Why are you calling me an a-hole?"
"I wasn't."
"That's what that gesture means here."
"I didn't know that. That's not what it means in my country."
"Oh, okay."

It's the intent that matters. Being offended by someone not following or not being aware of a bunch of arbitrary and obscure rules when there is no disrespect intended is just silly.
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That's basically my point. I find it rather unreasonable that the "veteran" here immediately saw this as a message of dishonor and hatred for the flag, for America and for all the ideals that are supposed to be the foundation of the US and all those who have fought and died to defend them.

It's... really just ridiculous. The most obvious thing to take from the display is that the guy likes America and isn't well versed in flag customs.

Maybe if the context was a platoon of Mexican national gorillas storming an American town, declaring it under Mexican control and flying the Mexican colors over the US while taunting the US and the flag.... okay... then the meaning of the display is obviously different.


I don't generally excuse ignorance, and ignorance of the law is not a legal defense. But if ignorance was not a defense for insulting or offending, then I'd be in more trouble now than I already am with a lot of people.

*sigh* bad memories...

"Dude, his mom died of cancer just last month."
"Yeah, she actually lost her grandmother on the Lusitania"
"He's half native american"
"Dude, you didn't know he lost is testicals in a hunting accident and needs to take testosterone injections every day. Cut it with the comments about balls"
"You know you made her feel really bad when you said she wasn't any fun because she wouldn't even try the cake. How would you feel if you were diabetic and couldn't have any more sugar and people were taunting you?"
"You he's not just polish, his parents were born in Poland"
"I think you should try to tone down the whole story about the party you went to around him, I mean.. he's trying really hard to stay sober since he quit drinking. I think he's a bit mad at you."
"You do know that girl was his sister, right?"
 
Tokorona said:
If only the two were equivalant.. if only..
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Yeah...so things have to be equivalent to be similar? Hmm...I guess it's all in the semantics, and the more liberaler you are, more semanticer you get to be with things.

After all, it all depends on what your definition of "is" is, huh?

Tokie
 
tsg said:
They mean what you want them to mean. No more, no less. To take your "okay" symbol analogy a step further, I can see a German being upset at you because he thought you were calling him an a-hole. Upon further discussion, however, when it turns out that you weren't, a rational person wouldn't be upset anymore.

"Why are you calling me an a-hole?"
"I wasn't."
"That's what that gesture means here."
"I didn't know that. That's not what it means in my country."
"Oh, okay."

It's the intent that matters. Being offended by someone not following or not being aware of a bunch of arbitrary and obscure rules when there is no disrespect intended is just silly.
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Indeed. And in America, the intent of an illegal flying a Mexican flag above an American flag is quite clear.

I was driving by a gang of manuel laborers one day and noticed that one of them was wearing an enormous sombrero. Now, they don't even wear these things in Mexico anymore, so it was clear that this guy, an illegal, working on a busy street in an American city where we've (citizens, not the mollycoddling politicos) have had it up to here with illegals, was thumbing his nose at us. I noted the name of the company, called their office and asked whether all their guys were legals...noting that one was wearing a sombrero at that location.

Now, maybe he was fired, I dunno....they all look alike to a bigot like me, but the next time I drove by...no sombrero.

Tokie
 
Tokenconservative said:
I noted the name of the company, called their office and asked whether all their guys were legals...noting that one was wearing a sombrero at that location.

Now, maybe he was fired, I dunno....they all look alike to a bigot like me, but the next time I drove by...no sombrero.

Tokie
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WOW! You are a TRUE Patriot (and a bigot as you readily confess). It takes a special person to be offended by a hat!
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
Well, complaining about workers that are not paying their fair share of taxes IMO does not make one a bigot.
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Yes, but making a positive identification of workers here illegally based on a HAT is pretty ridiculous! Wearing a cowboy hat doesn't make you more of an American any more than it makes you a cowboy! Wearing a baseball cap doesn't make you a baseball player any more than wearing a caddy cap makes you a caddy. Why are "manuel" laborer's citizenship in question for wearing a sombrero?
 
Tokenconservative said:
Yeah...so things have to be equivalent to be similar? Hmm...I guess it's all in the semantics, and the more liberaler you are, more semanticer you get to be with things.

After all, it all depends on what your definition of "is" is, huh?

Tokie
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I'm not a liberal! (Mistake 1)

Two, they aren't similar. Until Mexico, is, say, INVADING, the US...well.
 
Mephisto said:
Yes, but making a positive identification of workers here illegally based on a HAT is pretty ridiculous! Wearing a cowboy hat doesn't make you more of an American any more than it makes you a cowboy! Wearing a baseball cap doesn't make you a baseball player any more than wearing a caddy cap makes you a caddy. Why are "manuel" laborer's citizenship in question for wearing a sombrero?
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He did not make a positive identification. He made an assumption which may or may not be correct.

Do you approve of non-taxpayers using the taxpayer funded system?
 
Tokorona said:
I'm not a liberal! (Mistake 1)

Two, they aren't similar. Until Mexico, is, say, INVADING, the US...well.
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Reconquista (Mexico)

A movement hoping to grant ownership of certain land areas in the Southwestern United States to Mexico, Mexicans, or Mexican-Americans. The premise of this reconquest is an historical claim to the land prior to the presence of European-Americans. The term does not make a claim for Spaniard-Europeans, but rather, for Mexicans, the majority of whom are mixed-blood and full-blood indigenous-blooded people.
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Mexica-Movemnet

We say, "No to occupation!"

We say, "This is still our continent!"

We say, "Europeans are the illegals--since 1492!"
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JEROME DA GNOME said:
He did not make a positive identification. He made an assumption which may or may not be correct.
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You know what they say about ass-u-mptions. ;)

JEROME DA GNOME said:
Do you approve of non-taxpayers using the taxpayer funded system?
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Nice try. I do, however, believe in the right of all laborers (no matter what their ethnic background or nationality) to wear whatever hat they choose to shield themselves from the sun. Skin cancer is a serious problem and someone's citizenship shouldn't be called into question because they're taking measures to prevent it.

Would you support Token for calling the employer to ensure that none of his workers were robbers if he passed by on a cold winter day and saw them in ski masks?
 
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