Mercenaries Third Largest Force in Iraq

crackmonkey said:
If the 'semantic pin-dancing' bothers you, then let's just call them security guards and be done with this pettiness.
Once again - how are these security guards different from an armed guard in, say, Kuwait? Or your local bank, for that matter? Is it merely because they work in a high-risk area?
Did you read Doubt's post? Does a security guard down at the bank need to know how to call in an arty strike? They're freakin' MERCS! Why is that word so upsetting to you?
 
It's not... it's merely inaccurate, and the 'merc' term has been applied, as you noted, for its connotations as opposed to its appropriateness.
You think these guys were about to call in artillery? Why? They were guards... and you still haven't differentiated a guard from a 'mercenary' in this situation. According to you, a Brinks guard on duty in Iraq would be a 'merc'. And if he was an ex-Army guy, he could have learned how to call in artillery strikes...
I don't think I'm as disturbed by the 'merc' term as the ones who insisted on calling them that as opposed to 'security guard' or the other typical terms...
 
Hexxenhammer said:
Did you read Doubt's post? Does a security guard down at the bank need to know how to call in an arty strike? They're freakin' MERCS! Why is that word so upsetting to you?
Because it derails the thread, and avoids having to address the issues.
 
Ignored in the "Falluja" thread by a_u_p and subgenius:


Originally posted by a_unique_person: "I think you will find they fit the description for mercenary. That is, someone going into a war zone for money. I am not saying I am glad they died such awful deaths, but they were mercenaries."


My response: "I think you like the term "mercenary" because it falls in-line with your propaganda quite nicely. I know for a fact that mercenaries are in Iraq, but these poor guys can not be counted among them.

If you ever want to know what a real merc is, feel free to ask me. I could get some friends together and we could get out the MP-5's and flash-bangs...with a little instruction, you'd be dropping targets in no time..."






Originally posted by subgenius: "Well, I wasn't going to derail the thread, but since you brought it up, quite rightfully. The unfortunate victims were some of the many private security forces there.

Although these in particular may have been protecting some of the many contractors there, they are, in part, an example of Cheney's fetish for "privatizing". There is a huge American mercenary industry around the world, but now in particularly in Iraq.
"Privatizing" sounds good to some, but has many downsides, which should be obvious.
I was floored when one of the networks reported last night, without noting the significance, that the security for the US administrator Bremer is provided by a private company!

There is something terribly wrong when we cannot, or do not, provide our own official protection for our own officials. If the US cannot provide such on our own behalf as a government, how do we expect to succeed in acheiving whatever our objectives are as a nation?

Of course the privatizing has the added "benefit" of enriching one's buddies, it one wants to, and avoiding complying with the niceties of law and the rules of war."


My response: "Hello, real world calling...

Neither the Treasury Dept. (Secret Service) nor the U.S. military can handle the workload of protecting every US diplomat and official in harm's way. All the U.S. mercs are either former military or former local, state, or federal law enforcement. They are patriotic, professional, and proud. Why shouldn't they be paid?

You hint at the evils of privatizing, but other than your standard liberal fear of government not having a hand in everything, you have failed to provide any examples."
 
Grammatron said:


What issues, if you don't mind me asking?
I have already suggested one, above. Contractors not being subject to certain constraints on what we can do officially and the potental for them to do things you can't do legally.
In the present situation I can see non-uniformed forces creating confusion in the locals as to who's in charge, and who is to be obeyed. Obviously a lot of resentment as well. A feeling that instead of our benevolent government, corporations are invading their country. I would ask you to imagine if it was your country and you had heavily armed non-uniformed folks around. You really don't know if they are authorized to even be there.
Perhaps Mr. Doubt or anyone else with more knowledge of the military and the rules of war can address the uniform issue because I have only a vague notion that combatants/participants in and out of uniform in a war zone are treated differently for certain purposes. And the reason behind such distinctions, if any.
 
rikzilla said:
The laughing and posturing of so called "liberals" on this thread makes me want to vomit. Most of you claim to be against capital punishment, so how is it that Shemp, AUP, and SG can be seen here joining in the glee of the mob? Is "mercenary" a crime for which capital punishment is in your opinion ok??

This is a rare example where liberals have chosen to position themselves to profit politically from any failure of either the War on Terror or the Invasion of Iraq and the replacing of Saddam with a freely elected representative democracy. They view each dead coalition soldier as just another possible nail in Bush's electoral coffin. Each successful terrorist attack is another possible blow to the Bush campaign. Each disagreement among the Iraqi governing council is a potential drop in Bush's latest percentages. Some are even actually hoping that Bin Laden isn't captured until after the election.

The only thing sadder than this fact is that most see nothing wrong with this...
 
crackmonkey said:
It's not... it's merely inaccurate, and the 'merc' term has been applied, as you noted, for its connotations as opposed to its appropriateness.
You think these guys were about to call in artillery? Why? They were guards... and you still haven't differentiated a guard from a 'mercenary' in this situation. According to you, a Brinks guard on duty in Iraq would be a 'merc'. And if he was an ex-Army guy, he could have learned how to call in artillery strikes...
I don't think I'm as disturbed by the 'merc' term as the ones who insisted on calling them that as opposed to 'security guard' or the other typical terms...

Mercenary is the most accurate term. The items listed in my last post are the skills Blackwater is looking for. Calling in artillery is a specific skill that Blackwater wants their employees to have. This is not a skill needed for guard duty. Read the link I posted for the details. Same link again:

http://blackwatersecurity.com/resumescrub.html

Tier 1. Description: An operator with requirement-specific expertise in the skill sets identified below.

To call these people security guards ignores the range of skills their employer requires them to have. To claim they are security guards is a departure from reality.

The job they were doing that day was guard duty. That is one of many tasks a mercenary can perform. Calling in artillery is not a task that a security guard does. But it is a requirement for Blackwater.
 
subgenius said:

Because it derails the thread, and avoids having to address the issues.

Care to address any of the issues I put to you in either this or the "Falluja" thread?
 
subgenius said:

I have already suggested one, above. Contractors not being subject to certain constraints on what we can do officially and the potental for them to do things you can't do legally.
In the present situation I can see non-uniformed forces creating confusion in the locals as to who's in charge, and who is to be obeyed. Obviously a lot of resentment as well. A feeling that instead of our benevolent government, corporations are invading their country. I would ask you to imagine if it was your country and you had heavily armed non-uniformed folks around. You really don't know if they are authorized to even be there.
Perhaps Mr. Doubt or anyone else with more knowledge of the military and the rules of war can address the uniform issue because I have only a vague notion that combatants/participants in and out of uniform in a war zone are treated differently for certain purposes. And the reason behind such distinctions, if any.

Are these mercenaries performing any military task that a soldier normally would?
 
Mycroft said:


Don't forget the after-costs of soldiers. Benifits, medical care, retirement, etc.

I think Shemp has already pointed out that mercenaries don't affect the bottom line. In this case, the families will be depending on charity from an internet appeal by the looks of it.
 
Most of them aren't 'mercenaries'.

Or they are, in that computer contractors are 'mercenaries', too.

Of course, they COULD be 'contracting' Iraqis. After all, it's their own country, and they speak the local language, know the customs, etc. You could probably sort out the good from the bad during OJT. A LOT cheaper than flying consultants in from overseas.
 
subgenius said:

I have already suggested one, above. Contractors not being subject to certain constraints on what we can do officially and the potental for them to do things you can't do legally.
In the present situation I can see non-uniformed forces creating confusion in the locals as to who's in charge, and who is to be obeyed. Obviously a lot of resentment as well. A feeling that instead of our benevolent government, corporations are invading their country. I would ask you to imagine if it was your country and you had heavily armed non-uniformed folks around. You really don't know if they are authorized to even be there.
Perhaps Mr. Doubt or anyone else with more knowledge of the military and the rules of war can address the uniform issue because I have only a vague notion that combatants/participants in and out of uniform in a war zone are treated differently for certain purposes. And the reason behind such distinctions, if any.
A nice article that was totally ignored...

''Tuba Tango: we need two shooters. Arthur power station: two shooters. GOSP Three Romeo: four shooters. . . . '' From Kuwait City to here the S.U.V.'s were safe enough in their long silver convoy, but now, traveling singly, they'll need armed guards. The British soldiers toss aside the trash from their rations and drape themselves with weapons and long, glinting belts of ammunition. As the KBR cars roar off toward their daily appointments with Iraqi oil, the soldiers, many of whom fought the hard battles for Basra and Umm Qasr, pile into Land Rovers and fall in behind.

When Dwight Eisenhower warned in 1961 of the ''military-industrial complex,'' he never imagined the regimental descendants of Monty's boys at El Alamein tenting in the desert to baby-sit corporadoes earning $10,000 tax-free a month. This, however, is modern might. The military has become the industrial, and vice versa.


SNIP


The military has relied on civilian contractors ever since George Washington hired farmers to haul supplies for the Continental Army, and the use of mercenaries is as old as time. But the KBR-style blending of corporations into the fabric of the military is relatively recent. Its genesis is one of the unsung but seminal ideological documents of the Reagan era, a revolution-on-paper that goes by the dry title Circular No. A-76. Issued in 1983 by the budget director, David Stockman, A-76 mandates that government should ''rely on commercial sources to supply the products and services the government needs.''

Circular No. A-76 wasn't written specifically for the Defense Department, and the military was slow to adopt the approach. It took the end of the cold war for the Pentagon to discover the benefits of outsourcing. The times demanded that the military shrink -- remember all the talk about a ''peace dividend''? Oddly, though, the end of the cold war uncorked a froth of conflicts from Africa to the Balkans that the military had to monitor and, in the case of the former Yugoslavia , fight. By one count, the Army has deployed soldiers more than three times as often in the 14 years since the cold war ended than in the cold war's four-decade history, even though it is today down to only two-thirds the size of its cold war peak.

Downsizing the military not only meant doing more with less; it also meant that a lot of former soldiers, sailors, airmen and officers were suddenly on the street looking for the kind of work for which their particular skills would be valuable. The Pentagon still needed those skills. So the downsized warriors joined a constellation of corporations that sold those skills -- everything from data processing to interrogation to bomb disposal -- back to the military at private-sector prices.


SNIP


Outsourcing military missions also lets the Pentagon do things Congress might not approve. Congress, for example, has said the military can have only 400 U.S. soldiers in Colombia , an oil-rich country destabilized by guerrillas and the cocaine trade. But for years, civilian pilots employed by DynCorp, a KBR competitor, have been flying what amount to combat missions in Colombia under contract to the State Department, spraying coca crops with defoliant and occasionally getting shot at. Representative Janice Schakowsky, Democrat of Chicago, has been trying to put a stop to this kind of end run around Congressional oversight, but in the bellicose post-9/11 atmosphere on Capitol Hill, she can't get traction. Congress would never authorize the U.S. military to perform such a politically explosive mission as the Colombian spraying, Schakowsky argues, and if an American soldier was killed in Colombia it would be Page 1 news.

''Is the U.S. military privatizing its missions to avoid public controversy or embarrassment -- to hide body bags from the media and shield the military from public opinion?'' she asks. Iraq , Schakowsky says, is no different. ''We talk a lot in Congress about how many U.S. troops are there and for how long, but not at all about the contractors,'' she said. ''They don't have to follow the same chain of command, the military code of conduct may or may not apply, the accountability is absent and the transparency is absent -- but the money keeps flowing.''

The General Accounting Office and several watchdog groups say it's not yet even clear that Pentagon contractors are cheaper in the long run than a larger military; the experiment is still too young. And there are other concerns, first among them the uncomfortable fact that the military can find itself dependent in wartime on people it doesn't fully control. Often, the only people who know how to run the military's new high-tech gear are the geeks of the company that makes it, so the soldiers manning, say, an Abrams tank don't necessarily know how to fix it if it breaks. After visiting Arifjan I met a reserve Air Force colonel in the lobby of the Kuwait Hilton who told me the communications gear on which his job depends is entirely maintained by civilian employees of the manufacturer (he wouldn't tell me which). ''We had a problem in the middle of the night and called down for the contractor; they told us he doesn't come in until 9 a.m. ,'' the officer told me. ''We're fighting a war, and the contractor doesn't come in until 9 a.m. !'' And really, there's no guarantee the contractor will be there at all if things get ugly. Soldiers have to stay put when the shells start falling or face punishment for desertion; contractors who decide the high pay isn't worth the risk can simply leave. As the Defense Department itself put it in a 1991 report, ''D.O.D. Components cannot ensure that emergency-essential services performed by contractors would continue during crisis or hostile situations.'' And that was before the big increase in Pentagon contracting.

From the public's point of view, the increasing use of contractors makes it harder to know what the military is really doing. The Pentagon has lots of maddening rules that citizens have to follow if they want information, but while the Pentagon has secrets, it also fundamentally recognizes that it is a public institution. Not so the contractors, whose first allegiance is to their shareholders and who have little incentive to share information about how they operate. Take salaries. An Army sergeant with four years' service earns $48,292.03 a year, a captain with two years' service earns $60,500.47 and a lieutenant colonel with six years' service earns $87,299.81; the salaries are even posted on the Internet. But when I asked a KBR spokeswoman how much her people were earning for their hard, beerless months in the desert, she said, ''We absolutely don't discuss salaries.''

''Why not?'' I asked. ''You're paying them with taxpayer money.''


SNIP


The revolving door that spins at the top of the military-industrial ziggurat spins at the bottom too. On my way out of Arifjan, I looked more closely at the heavily armed soldiers guarding the gate and found they weren't soldiers at all, but rather civilian employees of something called Combat Support Associates, a joint venture of three obscure American companies that provide the Army with security, logistics, ''live-fire training'' and maintenance. In southern Iraq I ran into four big men in full combat gear and Robocop sunglasses whom I also took to be soldiers until I noticed the tape over the left shirt breasts; instead of US ARMY, it said EODT. That stands for ''Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technology,'' not an Army unit but a company based in Knoxville , Tenn. The Web site says EOD Technology ''applies leading-edge geophysical technologies to provide documented efficient solutions to environmental challenges,'' and what that translates to is: these guys dig up minefields for a living. Their challenge the day I saw them was an unexploded American artillery round that had crashed through an oil pipeline and was buried who-knew-where underneath. All four used to be soldiers; now they do the same work at private-sector wages.

It's an article of faith among KBR's people that they will be in Iraq only a short while. KBR's top client, Brig. Gen. Robert Crear of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, is the man in charge of Team RIO (Restore Iraqi Oil), and on a walking tour of the Basra oil refinery he insisted that the Army's role -- and by extension KBR's -- is temporary. ''This is an Iraqi operation,'' he said several times. ''The oil belongs to the Iraqi people. We are only support, and only until the infrastructure is up and running.''

But neither he nor anybody else was able to say what ''up and running'' means. Depending on how that question is answered, companies like KBR will be in Iraq for months and will make millions, or years, and make billions. Decades of war and sanctions have left the wellheads, drills, pumps, and pipelines so inefficient and unsafe that, by some estimates, it will take $50 billion and a decade to fix them.

There is no question that companies like KBR are up to the job. What isn't clear is whether there will come a day, anytime soon, when the United States says, ''O.K.; good enough,'' and goes home -- leaving the Iraqi oil fields patched together and its equipment semi-safe. Or does the effort to ''assist the Iraqi people'' require a decadelong, oil-financed bonanza for oil-service companies like KBR/Halliburton? If anybody has the answer to that question, he or she is not saying. ''That's way above my pay grade,'' says General Crear.

What's certain is that as long as the Army is in Iraq , KBR will be there with it. In Baghdad every morning, a crowd of desperate job seekers gathers at dawn at the back gate of the old Republican Palace compound, which is now U.S. Army headquarters. At about 7, a Humvee full of KBR men roars up, and like doorkeepers at the old Studio 54 they select a dozen or so grateful men and women for menial tasks on the base. Nobody objected to my watching this scene, but later, when a photographer took out a camera, an Army public-affairs officer walked up with his hand outstretched. ''The authorities in charge have decided not to allow access at this time,'' he said. When asked if those ''authorities'' were the Army or KBR, the officer sighed and said, ''To be honest, the lines get a little blurred sometimes.''

Doesn't anyone know if they still have to drink Odoul's?
 
"the lines get a little blurred sometimes"
____________
There you go again.

You think you're so damn smart.

You're just another liberal Bush-hater who is dancing with glee at these brutal deaths.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, O'Douls. I prefer Zhiguly.
 
Putting aside the "I wish they could all live a life free of violence" stuff, and recognising, like it or not, that some nasty stuff is going to be happening in Fallujah sometime soon, what are the favoured outcomes?

1. A pacified population
or
2. A rout of the mercenaries and paid killers of the US

I don't fancy the people of Fallujah have much chance of repelling the invaders, but I wish them all the best in their endeavours.

Isn`t this the sort ot time that the US fires a few cruise missiles and blow up a few buildings in Fallujah to make themselves feel better? Innocent people will die but at least the US population will be fed some pictures of people being blown up to show them that their soldiers are "still in charge".
They'll "respond" will they? They're like bloody jealous neighbours -
"Oh, now we've got to have an even BIGGER barbecue!"

Lot of media commentators have condemned the "barbaric savagery" shown by jubilant Iraqis celebrating the deaths in Fallujah, however, go back eight months or so to reports on the killing of Saddam's sons and it's a totally different story.
When photographs of their bodies were shown, Bremer and the media lauded the Iraqis who celebrated - their exaltation was seized on as a justification for invasion. Very few commentators noted that rejoicing in violent death - even of thoroughly bad men - dehumanises and degrades the celebrant. It brutalises people and triggers emotions that cannot be so easily reined in once released.
So it`s pretty obvious that viewing violence as abhorrent is a propaganda tool of the ruling elites, conveniently dropped as and when they want and need the people to kill in the name of profits and maintenance of the status quo. As usual, the good old double standards and hypocrisy of the occupiers comes shining through.

Anyway, as far as I`m concerned, what happened to these mercenaries is not qualitatively different from being at the wrong end of a precision-guided bomb...and there were thousands who were but the media and the US Administration and the UK Government has it`s own mercenary attitude towards them.
I`ll agree with Bremer on one thing in all this when he says that they didn`t die in vain. They died for the big pay check...one they didn`t live to enjoy.
 
Let us sing with Pink Floyd the praises of the Dogs of War:

Dogs of war and men of hate
With no cause, we don't discriminate
Discovery is to be disowned
Our currency is flesh and bone
Hell opened up and put on sale
Gather 'round and haggle
For hard cash, we will lie and deceive
Even our masters don't know the web we weave
One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world
Invisible transfers, long distance calls,
Hollow laughter in marble halls
Steps have been taken, a silent uproar
Has unleashed the dogs of war
You can't stop what has begun
Signed, sealed, they deliver oblivion
We all have a dark side, to say the least
And dealing in death is the nature of the beast
One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world
The dogs of war don't negotiate
The dogs of war won't capitulate,
They will take and you will give,
And you must die so that they may live
You can knock at any door,
But wherever you go, you know they've been there before
Well winners can lose and things can get strained
But whatever you change, you know the dogs remain.
One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world
 
Floyd sucked after Waters left.

And I see a number of liberals salving their pain over these regrettable deaths (or in demon's case, delightful deaths) by using this as yet another opportunity to bash the President. I understand... it's an election year, and these guards would likely be voting Republican.
Talk about killing two birds with one stone! Not only have 4 Republicans been killed, their deaths can be used as a weapon against Bush!
 
Crackmonkey:
"or in demon's case, delightful deaths"

Where did I say the deaths were delightful?
If you had read anything I have said on the incident you would know my fears and reservations about taking delight in ANY deaths.
There are others around here who do take delight in just that, maybe you have me confused with one of them.

I won`t be shedding any tears for the deaths of those merceneries but I won`t be taking delight in them either and you would know why if you weren`t so eager to get your straw man in.
 

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