Mental Disorders and Religious Sentiment...

[blutoski]

No, Blutoski. You can't just let something like that slip without addressing my point. The DSM found homosexuality to be a disease when our culture thought it was a disease. The DSM changed it's stance on homosexuality as our culture changed its stance on homosexuality. Again, I'll tell you that science had nothing to do with it. Just like science has little to do with current DSM categorizations. They are trendy... like Fugue states, like MPD, like ADD. Trends.

I'm going to dispute your claim that the DSM classified homosexuality as a 'disease'. You'll have to provide cites for this one.

I think my argument was that it was scientific, although not a science. The reason homosexuality was dropped was that there didn't seem to be serious consequences, most homosexuals stopped wanting to change, and therapy was ineffective, which meant the classification had little utility. This is pretty scientific in nature.

A few years ago, neandertals were considered a different genus, then they were considered a different species, and now, they're the same species as we are. Things change in scientific fields as knowledge builds. That's an indicator that they're scientific, actually. If the DSM was static, I'd be more inclined to agree with your claim.

Also: you're not grasping that I don't see this as a big leap from other medical classifications. You still haven't explained to me why you think chickenpox is 'an illness'. Is it not because our society just sort of thinks it is? What about the serious consequences of this? In my province, a kid who wants to go to school with chickenpox would be tackled by the police before they got to the door. There are thousands of antivax people out there giving their kids chickenpox on purpose (chickenpox "parties"), and disagree with you. Like pretty much all science, it's a human classification to call it an 'illness'. What's special about psychiatry?

Personally, the scientific fields that I think stand out are geology, astronomy, and evolutionary biology. These are historical sciences, and experimental reproduction for theory-testing is weak at best. Psychiatry is pretty solid in comparison.

I've never claimed this. I have claimed that that the political consequences are much more important in this area than the others. Case in point: you can't make get treatment for anything other than my "mental condition."

But you haven't demonstrated why, exactly, you think the consequences are 'more important'. You brought up Germany: blue eyes were eugenic ('healthy'), whereas brown eyes were dysgenic ('unhealthy'). Does this bring the concept of eye colour into question? Again: isolate the political issues from the scientific ones.

But your point was the reason something is an illness is because "the patient wants to get better."

So how are we to treat the good looking 37-year old woman, weighing in at a nice 130lbs... a bit of a pooch in the tummy after three kids? She still looks good, nothing out of the ordinary for her age and the number of births...

But she wants that little pooch gone... she wants to "get better????"

Is she ill?

This looks like cosmetics, right? You'd have to ask her what she thinks the consequences are. It doesn't sound like if you asked her, she'd say "I want to get better." I predict she'd say "I want to <i>look</i> better."

Here's a related question: what if it wasn't a paunch, but was elephantisis instead?



One of the things that gets glossed over about skeptics is that we have a method whose purpose is to make practical decisions. My overview of science is that much of it is a human endeavour, pursuing human priorities, through methods that we adopted somewhat arbitrarily. We are entitled to make judgement calls. We can disagree on them, which is human, but they don't stop being scientific. An example is the neandertal classification I mention above. Another is the assignment of p<=.05 for statistical significance.

This is what science is like, unfortunately. Human judgements. Applied common-sense. &c.

 

[Katana]

Modern psychiatry asks these questions when in it is in its best interest to do so. Period. Modern psychiatry does not call to us in our ignorance. It reflects the trends of the culture in which it is embedded, making it fashionable to issue changes to its theories as people demand, not as anything particularly relevant crops us scientifically. Case in point: homosexuality.

Why do you assume that society drives changes in the psychiatric field rather than the other way around?

My interpretation is that there's something special about psychiatry that you don't like that is not related to scientific issues, but more about religious or political ones, and the metaphysics of reification is an excuse and rationalization to reject the field without admitting the real underlying reasons. My assumption is that this is because you know that skeptics would reject their importance on the grounds that they are religious or political opinions.

Am I paying for this counseling session? Save your two-bit babble for the asylum then.

Nicely said, blutoski.

Sounds like you struck a nerve.

 

[Dancing David]

You obviously did not read a lot of my posts as this thread progressed, I will address your issues that you mention but again, you sure didn't read alot that I wrote, i already mentioned the domestic violence issue and the issues with kids, perhaps a better question to be asking is this.

Why is menatl health the only provier of services?

Why aren't there more supports for children?

Why doesn't society support the victims of domestic violence?

Why don't we have more drug rehab?

The place I see it the most is in children. Doping them up. When I coordinated safety for my local school district, part of my responsibility was organizing community drug/violence prevention.. this meant that I was able to target early intervention programs in elementary schools, as well as colaborate with juvenile courts for restorative justice programs.

I've seen these kids first hand-- and the most disgusting thing????

Medication with no form of counseling whatsoever. Dope em up and send them out the door. In many cases it was the family doctor writing the prescription... but I've known psychiatrists who doped up kids after one meeting and the only follow-ups they scheduled were to see how the meds were working.

And whose fault is that Stamen, why isn;t the judge asking for counseling?

Is a family doctor a mental health practioner?

Is a psychiatrist suppossed to force counseling on people? i have worked in mental health for 16 years. In the town where I live the mental health center is so busy that there wait time for a psychiatrist is eight months. is that the fault of the mental health worker or the government that doesn't give a crap?

I agree there are kids who should not be medicated, and there are kids who should have counseling. But is that the fault of the mental heath practioner or the political system that underfunds the system? Or is that the fault of the crappy parent?

You can't tell me that this is a problem isolated in my home town... I've read similar stories from all over the place...

"You son has ADD."

"Take this... we'll adjust as needed..."

So that is a bad practioner, I can't help that, there are also family doctors who perscribe xanax to addicts, is that the fault of the mental health system or the doctor?

There are bad doctots, that is not some sort of philosophical issue for the defintion of mental health.

Yeah right. Many of the kids I worked with just sold their meds to users to crush and snort. Others just cried like babies in my office about how much they hated their meds. And yeah, a few it actually helped.

Then I sympathise, but what did you do about it? Did you talk to thier doctor's and families to find out why that medication was perscribed, did you advocate for a change? Why couldn't they get counseling?

I am not blaming you believe me, these are mental health issues but where were the supportive case managers and counselors? Why isn't mental health funded like other service provisions, why aren't there more funds to help people? It is not because there isn't mental illness, it is because we live in a society that favors the rich and ignores the poor.

Then there was my time in the area mental health hospital... as I stated I was on the women's floor. Time and time again, I watched men drop of their women in a state of hysteria (probably because of something sh!tty he did) I watched them get their meds, calm down... then the husbands were there first thing Monday morning to pick them up... betcha he had a great weekend!

And that is the fault of the mental health systems, that they get stuck with everybody else's problems. or is that a scoietal problem, that allows domestic violence? Asd I said in many posts earlier i feel that the medication of domstic violence is a real issue that needs to be addressed but it is not solely a mental health issue, the fault lies with a society that does not offer any supports for women fleeing domestic violence, I know there are shelters, I worked in on for three years, and they are woefully underfunded.

I'll never forget the 19-year old hooker... the cops would pick her up and dump her at the institution. They keep her as long as the law said they had to (usually 48 hours)... they'd drug her up, pat her on the back and send her home with a brand spanking new prescription. Her pimp was waiting at the gate to pick her up every time... 10 days later, we'd see her come through the system again-- RINSE AND REPEAT.

And whose fault is that? I don't know why they treated her Stamen, you haven't said that , but the issue most likely is that there is no support for substance abuse treatment, there are no services available to help abused children after they turn the age of twelve, child protective services are alomost non-existant and there are almost no programs to help prostitues break the cycle of drug addiction and domestic violence.

And this was 1993, my friend. Not 100 years ago. Slap a diagnosis on them, give them their meds, and send them on their merry little way.

And what the heck else can they do Stamen, you are blaming the person who gets to pull the bodies out of the river for the bodies in the river. the problem is not the medical model of mental illness, the problem is that if you don't give the 'dump jobs' treatment then there is no other place for them to go. There is no funding for rehab for the individuals who need it, there is no funding for supportive housing, there is very little funding for the mental health system to begin with.

A psych hospital can do little more, in the town where we work I can only admit people to the hospital when they are at rsik of suicide, homocide or just so out of it they will walk in front of a bus. So the vast majority of people I see, and especialy the drug addicts get zero intervention. Why ? Not because of the medical model of mental illness, but because our society favors the rich and takes a squat on everybody else.

So go ahead and say, "That's a shame." They should have gotten counseling... go ahead and appeal to words, because we need them to make a difference. But don't try to tell me that you can talk away my miagraine, cause it just aint the same damn thing.

I won't call you names for saying that I am indifferent, these are issues that are old hat Stamen, it shows that whatever you do you aren't a mental health worker and you haven't been to your local mental; health center.

The people who stick out mental health are the ones who can adjust to the depressing facts and not burn out.

It is not the fault of the diagnostic criteria that these things happen, it is the fault of a society that doesn't want to help people and then just stands there and expects the mental health system to cope with the lack of services.

Did you know that? Is this the fault of the psychiatrist and the DSM-IV or is this the fault of a society that expects the menatl health system to just cope with every issue that is doesn't address.

This is why i called you names earlier, you haven't been to your local service providers, you haven't been to your local mental health center to see how it deals with it's huge case load, you haven't been to your local elder abuse and victimization intervention provider, you haven't been to your local substance abuse provider, you haven't been to your local domestic violence shelter, you haven't been to your local children's inervention provider.

Why do i say this?

Because verything you have mentioned Stamen is old hat, I had to cope with it from the minute I became a case manager working with adults living with persistand and severe mental illness. They don't get squat for a check, housing costs alot, and no one wants the medical card because it pays a quarter on the dollar.

I had to deal with it at the domestic violence shelter, there is no emergency housing to meet the needs of womren and children, public housing is not a safe place, there families won't help. Society barely cares and generaly looks the other way.

And now I am a crisis woker , so I get to see all the people who get drowned in the river, all the people who can't get disability because the current adminstration makes them wait sixteen months between appeals, the others that society has drowned in the river of capitalism, stigma and indifference. I also do the intakes. so I see the children brought in because thier parents have a problem.

But why is that the fault of mental health, depression exists and is a normal reaction to stress. is that the fault of the system that creates the stress and doesn't do anything about it. Or is that the fault of the system that gets left pulling the bodies out of the river?

 

[stamenflicker]

I'm going to dispute your claim that the DSM classified homosexuality as a 'disease'. You'll have to provide cites for this one.

Should I have said "illness?"

http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1052101c.html

The reason homosexuality was dropped was that there didn't seem to be serious consequences, most homosexuals stopped wanting to change, and therapy was ineffective, which meant the classification had little utility. This is pretty scientific in nature.

I think by the time we got to the DSM-IV you view might have a case, but certainly not prior to it.

Also: you're not grasping that I don't see this as a big leap from other medical classifications. You still haven't explained to me why you think chickenpox is 'an illness'.

And you're not addressing that there is a radical difference between chicken-pox and somebody's moods.

Is it not because our society just sort of thinks it is?

I said above that it is because we deem it to be so. Didn't I say that? Do have to dig it out?

What about the serious consequences of this?

We've seen the consequences, as you have pointed out. We saw them in mandatory sterilizations, etc. etc.

There are thousands of antivax people out there giving their kids chickenpox on purpose (chickenpox "parties"), and disagree with you.

Do you really think that just because these people are giving their kids pox on purpose that they would not define chicken pox as "a condition of being sick?" Answer the question.

Like pretty much all science, it's a human classification to call it an 'illness'. What's special about psychiatry?

It has an incredible power to "create" disorder(s). So much has been created that 1/4 of the American population is "suffering." Was 1/4 of the populations "suffering" 50 years ago? 200 years ago? The number of ADHD kids has increased 700% over the past 15 years... really? You think?

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm

Psychiatry has the power to create illness under the umbrella of "science," innoculate the public with their shamanism, and POW! suddenly we're all hurting. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if I've seen one...

The website also claims that depression is the number source of disability claims in America and Canda. How new is that? Maybe half the reason these people are depressed is because they're sitting home drawing disability checks.... and how helpful of a treatment is it for depression to send someone home from work to sit around the house and get more depressed?

Do you really believe that general medicine is creating more illness in otherwise healthy bodies?

If psychiatry is so effective, why is our society getting worse and not better? Simply put, its trendy to be sick these days. Just like running off on a Fugue was trendy 75 years ago. Just like having MPD was trendy when Hollywood was making movies about it. Just like having ADHD is trendy today.

This is a funny little sidenote on illness creation:
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2003/336

At least I'm assuming its a joke...

Personally, the scientific fields that I think stand out are geology, astronomy, and evolutionary biology. These are historical sciences, and experimental reproduction for theory-testing is weak at best. Psychiatry is pretty solid in comparison.

Except that none of these fields have the same benefit of getting insanely rich from their discoveries. Hey, it pays my bills because I married one, I know.

But you haven't demonstrated why, exactly, you think the consequences are 'more important'. You brought up Germany: blue eyes were eugenic ('healthy'), whereas brown eyes were dysgenic ('unhealthy'). Does this bring the concept of eye colour into question? Again: isolate the political issues from the scientific ones.

Are people getting "sicker" because of medical advances? Why are people getting "sicker" because of mental health "advances?"

 

[stamenflicker]

Why is menatl health the only provier of services?

Why aren't there more supports for children?

Why doesn't society support the victims of domestic violence?

Why don't we have more drug rehab?

And why is the APA taking legal action on keeping children drugged? Where is their legal action on any of these items?

The APA has a vested interest in keeping itself at the center of power... at the center of disease construction... at the center of disease alleviation. And yet we have more disease now than we've ever had before.

Nice work!

 

[stamenflicker]

I won't call you names for saying that I am indifferent, these are issues that are old hat Stamen, it shows that whatever you do you aren't a mental health worker and you haven't been to your local mental; health center.

The people who stick out mental health are the ones who can adjust to the depressing facts and not burn out.

It is not the fault of the diagnostic criteria that these things happen, it is the fault of a society that doesn't want to help people and then just stands there and expects the mental health system to cope with the lack of services.

You see working in mental health was like pushing your finger in the dike; every time you blocked one leak another one would gush out someplace else.

I wouldn't categorize my decision to leave as burn-out. Instead of keeping my fingers in the dike, I decided to hike up river to see where all this damn water was coming from.

Everything you've posted just further proves my point. Social intervention, programs, etc. all involve the landscape of the person who is suffering... this makes pyschology an art, not a science.

Much of the time, it's about perspective and purpose, not physiology. Most mental illness is an intangible "disease" with only intangible answers. That's my take anyway.

I'm glad the medical model is out there, for the times there is truly an underlying physical cause. But there are too many people pushing it too often... and this is a Western worldview, not a mere question of pushing poor people aside.

 

[Dancing David]

You see working in mental health was like pushing your finger in the dike; every time you blocked one leak another one would gush out someplace else.

I wouldn't categorize my decision to leave as burn-out. Instead of keeping my fingers in the dike, I decided to hike up river to see where all this damn water was coming from.

I did not say yopu burnt out, I said that many people do, because there is a blanket system that is meant to deal with a single issue, mental health, and it gets everything else because it is there, with very little support.

But you can't blame the medical model of mental illness for a societal issue, you don't diagnos someone with depression if they are homeless, unless they pass the criteria for adjustment disorder. It is not the fault of the medical model that homeless people are likely to be depressed.

Everything you've posted just further proves my point. Social intervention, programs, etc. all involve the landscape of the person who is suffering... this makes pyschology an art, not a science.

Thats a real shame, you are saying that it is the fault of mental health that people have life issues, no they can meet the criteria while they have life issues, a good practioner will address the life issues along with the 'depression', just as a good doctor will advise that the patient get on a healthy diet and exercise more frequently. A good mental health practioner will do the same, you don't call heart disaease treatment an art and a science unless you are a doctor, it is true for the field. Same:Same.

Much of the time, it's about perspective and purpose, not physiology.

And most of those people should have CBT as opposed to medication, but 'duh' it is a free society than can choose either or neither.

Most mental illness is an intangible "disease" with only intangible answers. That's my take anyway.

And worth what my opinion is, what is your competing theory and evidence, people need treatment to improve, it is not the mental health model that is fault there, it is a systems issue with a lot of personal discretion.

You are blaming the mental health system for not treating the whole person, they can and do, what evidence do you have that it is willfull on the part of the pra ctioners to just medicate. It is not the best practice nor is it the main stream, it is usually the individual that declines therapy.

I'm glad the medical model is out there, for the times there is truly an underlying physical cause. But there are too many people pushing it too often... and this is a Western worldview, not a mere question of pushing poor people aside.

And that and a flying saucer make for a vauge conspiracy theory, your argument that there is a problem with the mental health model is based upon solely that. If I say that the system is not designed to provide support for all the people asking for help, you seem to blame it on the DSM, and the vast psychiatric conspiracy theory.

It is amtter that crosses into society and personl freedom as well, you seem to want top blame the mental health system for not giving the prostitue more support, what were they supposed to do?

What are your answers?

Where are your solutions?

Mental health is not saying that medicine is the only method to health, you treat the symptoms with medicine when warranted and you treat the rest of the person when you can, what is your beef with that?

That is why I say you need to go to the local menetal health center, see the people who get just therapy, see the people who need help in daily living, see that they try to help peopel qadress the life issues that they can, the main problem being that if soomeone does just have a situational problem, they aren'y likely to get treatment, because there ain't enough to do around.

You should also check out the devolpmental disability system, basicly they are just being shoved off onto thier parents because the government doesn't want to pay for the care they need.