McCain vs Obama

Unabogie said:
According to whom?
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See the edit above.

Unabogie said:
Are you contending that wealthy people sell their used cars on Craigslist instead of trading them in? I'd be curious to see the data on that.
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You do know that traded-in cars get sold again as used cars, don't you?

Unabogie said:
But what's wrong with moving the demand forward if demand was already lagging and the car companies were about to fold? How many used cars would those out of work people buy? Are you taking that into account as well? I had no idea you supported putting the auto companies out of business.
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What is your source that CfC kept any auto companies from folding? You do realize that moving demand forward doesn't actually increase overall demand, don't you?
 
Unabogie said:
The US car companies were about to go under and with them tens of thousands of jobs would have been lost. Cash for Clunkers pumped money into the economy, put more fuel efficient cars on the road, and helped stave off the collapse of the auto industry. And it cost less than a month in Iraq. Sounds like a good deal to me and I wish it were made permanent. But then again, I have long been a fan of targeted credits and incentives like this.
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Most mainstream economists agree. The dogmatic Libertarians don't, but they are the same folks that gave us the deregulated banking systems that triggered this latest recession.
 
WildCat said:
See the edit above.


You do know that traded-in cars get sold again as used cars, don't you?


What is your source that CfC kept any auto companies from folding? You do realize that moving demand forward doesn't actually increase overall demand, don't you?
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See Biscuit's post for an opposing view on this.
 
Biscuit said:
There are obviously differences of opinion on that but some of the numbers seem quite positive.
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Sorry, but that strains belief. To buy into that, you'd have to believe that rebates of up to $4,500 had no effect at all on the timing of auto purchases. And it doesn't explain the drop in sales in the months prior to CfC.
 
WildCat said:
You do know that traded-in cars get sold again as used cars, don't you?
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Not the Cash for clunkers cars.

Dealers would send the Cash for Clunkers trade-ins to a salvage operator. The legislation requires the engine, transmission and other drivetrain components to be destroyed so they can’t be reused and continue to pollute the air and burn excessive amounts of fuel.
Salvage operators would be free to resell other vehicle parts, however, which could be used to repair other vehicles or recycled as scrap and used to manufacture other products.
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http://environment.about.com/od/cashforclunkers/f/old-cars-and-cash-for-clunkers.htm
 
Heh, the authors of Buscuit's study debunk themselves!
"It's clear from the poll that consumers say they don't want to play the incentives game, but their buying patterns are inconsistent with what they say," said David Ensing, director of research and development, the Maritz Automotive Research Group. "They say they want everyday low prices; however, their behavior indicates that they have been conditioned to wait for the 'big sale.' There's little urgency to buy a vehicle unless there's a large discount."
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http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...nd-to-another-when-buying-a-car-56183017.html

So much for opinion polls. Actual data (Edmund's study) ftw.
 
WildCat said:
Sorry, but that strains belief. To buy into that, you'd have to believe that rebates of up to $4,500 had no effect at all on the timing of auto purchases. And it doesn't explain the drop in sales in the months prior to CfC.
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Little faith in the auto industry and the general collapsing economy would explain the drop in sales before and after CfC.

In fact those drops point to the success of CfC. If regular dealer rebates and no requirement to buy a more fuel efficient car were incentive than CfC would not have affected sales. However the government program received far more free advertising than any manufacturer rebate and people wanted to get something more fuel efficient at a time when budgets were tightening.

I know several people in my age group who took advantage of this program because of the program. 90% might be a bit high but it wouldn't surprise me.

If nothing else it showed people that the government is listening and initiating programs to help business, citizens, and the environment.
 
WildCat said:
Never said it did, did you actually read what I said?
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Oh I saw it. I believe the average price for a CfC purchase was around 25K. Your argument that the program punished poor people so rich people could buy luxury vehicles is ridiculous.
 
Biscuit said:
Little faith in the auto industry and the general collapsing economy would explain the drop in sales before and after CfC.
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Look at the graph on this page: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703882304575465560128479190.html#project%3DAUTOS90218%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive

No other year shows such a disparity in sales increase % from month to month as you see here for July and August (CfC started in July and ended in late August). Notice how things steady off in April of this year.

Notice also how sales dropped in early 2009, as consumers anticipated the CfC program which was winding its way threough Congress at the time. All CfC did was lower sales from January through June, boosted them in July and August, and lowered them again for months beyond that until leveling off again in March of this year.

This was a gimmick to fool the rubes.
 
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Biscuit said:
Oh I saw it. I believe the average price for a CfC purchase was around 25K. Your argument that the program punished poor people so rich people could buy luxury vehicles is ridiculous.
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How do you explain the 10% rise in the price of used cars following the implementation of CfC?

You think less wealthy people buy new cars as much as wealthier people do? You think someone making $20,000/yr buys a new $25,000 car?
 
WildCat said:
How do you explain the 10% rise in the price of used cars following the implementation of CfC?
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Do you think there could be other causes? How have your ruled those other causes out? Or is it just because they happened around the same time they one must have been caused by the other?
 
DJW said:
Poisoning the well.
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Poisoning the well or making an accurate prediction? Three posts downthread from my post:
Brainster said:
How lucky we are to have Joe Biden!
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Is it really "poisoning the well" when practically every time someone trashes Palin, Brainster will say something about Biden? Even though in the Vice Presidential debate in 2008, Palin made Biden look like a Rhodes Scholar.
 
Kestrel said:
Most mainstream economists agree. The dogmatic Libertarians don't, but they are the same folks that gave us the deregulated banking systems that triggered this latest recession.
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I think you mean the federally subsidized, destined to fail mortgage lending system designed by liberal Democrats.

I will concede that lax regulation of securities trading contributed considerably to the crash.There was blame enough to go around. It was perhaps the greatest outbreak of mass stupidity since the start of WWI.
 
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Unabogie said:
Do you think there could be other causes? How have your ruled those other causes out? Or is it just because they happened around the same time they one must have been caused by the other?
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You don't think taking 700,000 used cars off the market alters the price point in the supply/demand equation?
 
WildCat said:
You don't think taking 700,000 used cars off the market alters the price point in the supply/demand equation?
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Wow, CfC was used for 700,000 new, fuel efficient cars? I actually didn't know the final tally but that's awesome. We're all better off for that.

As for what that did to the used car market, I don't know. You haven't presented any data for your conclusion either way. What was the rise in prices the previous year? The previous 5?
 
Unabogie said:
The US car companies were about to go under and with them tens of thousands of jobs would have been lost. Cash for Clunkers pumped money into the economy…
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No, it did not. It destroyed wealth. It took money out of the economy to pay for the wealth that was being destroyed, in the form of perfectly fine and usable automobiles. It left the economy poorer by the value of the cars that were destroyed. It caused more financial harm, to more people, than the benefits that it brought to fewer people. The damage it did to the economy certainly caused more jobs to be lost, than those that it can be credited with having “saved”.

Again, see the Parable of the broken window.
 
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