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Materialism - Devastator of Scientific Method! / Observer Delusion

Nick227 said:
Porpoise of Life - I have repeatedly explained why not all emergent phenomena have the same ontological validity. I'm not going to do it all over again. Please read the thread if you're interested enough to know.
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And still not Devastation of the Scientific Method
 
The Man said:
Again, inconsistent and contradictory if "the brain creates a subject here" even "as an aid to communication" then an "observer." is, by that assertion, ture.
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No.

All you are doing is still assuming observation and observer are tied together phenomenally because they are tied together linguistically.

The language is creating your reality, not the phenomena.
 
tsig said:
A True SkepticTM never uses the term 'true skeptic'.
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Well, OK, perhaps I am denigrating the great tradition of skepticism by calling Hans a true skeptic.

Personally though I am deeply skeptical of his ability to refute a position by empiric means.

I mean, 40k posts and all you can manage is "it's a brain process... er, that's it", I mean bloody hell!

And this is it. It shows that you can study AI, information theory, or cognitive neuroscience until you're blue in the face. But if you don't know for yourself that none of this studying is really happening to anyone...
 
Nick227 said:
I mean, 40k posts and all you can manage is "it's a brain process... er, that's it", I mean bloody hell!
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Because you want there to be more to the process when there isn't.

Yes the brain is the mind. That's it's job, that's it's function. When someone tells you that the heart pumps blood that's the end of the discussion, you don't launch into a tirade about why the heart pumps blood.

You're not devastating the scientific method here. You're making it stronger by showing how poorly other methods work.
 
Myriad said:
I wouldn't mind hearing your case for your view. But "you have to see it for yourself" is an abdication of making any such case, so it looks like I'll have to continue deciding for myself what to believe, based on the evidence available to me, without your assistance.
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Myriad,

You want to know what it looks like before you go there. This is the nature of the memeplex-dominated mind. It wants a preview and it wants to negotiate.

But because in reality there actually is nothing it is like to be you, it is simply not possible to get a preview. So, yes, of course it will be your choice.
You can hold yourself hostage, or you can jump...

... Me too!
 
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Nick227 said:
Myriad,

You want to know what it looks like before you go there. This is the nature of the memeplex-dominated mind. It wants a preview and it wants to negotiate.

But because in reality there actually is nothing it is like to be you, it is simply not possible to get a preview. So, yes, of course it will be your choice.
You can hold yourself hostage, or you can jump...
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And this is just more sad "Oh lookit at me I'm so much more enlightened then you sheeple" nonsense.
 
JoeBentley said:
Yes the brain is the mind. That's it's job, that's it's function. When someone tells you that the heart pumps blood that's the end of the discussion, you don't launch into a tirade about why the heart pumps blood
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Joe,

You and Hans must be the most easily satisfied scientists around. I salute you.
 
Nick227 said:
Joe,

You and Hans must be the most easily satisfied scientists around. I salute you.
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Yes I am satisfied with actual reality and don't feel the need to tack on Woo just to put on a pretentious "Wise Old Man on the Mountain" skit about how I'm so much more enlightened then everyone else.

It's suuuuuch a failing of mine. Right up there with my leaving the toilet seat up.
 
JoeBentley said:
Because you want there to be more to the process when there isn't.

Yes the brain is the mind. That's it's job, that's it's function. When someone tells you that the heart pumps blood that's the end of the discussion, you don't launch into a tirade about why the heart pumps blood.

You're not devastating the scientific method here. You're making it stronger by showing how poorly other methods work.
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If the brain is the mind, why doesn't the brain disappear when the mind shuts down?
 
Nick227 said:
No.

All you are doing is still assuming observation and observer are tied together phenomenally because they are tied together linguistically.

The language is creating your reality, not the phenomena.
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Actually all I did was show how one part of your assertion directly contradicts the other part of your assertion.

However, if you look up thread you might find where I explained how observation and observer are tied together materialistically.
 
Nick227 said:
Myriad,

You want to know what it looks like before you go there.
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No, I want you to articulate what it looks like to you. Specifically, what benefits you think it offers.

This is the nature of the memeplex-dominated mind. It wants a preview and it wants to negotiate.
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It is the nature of the mind that knows better than to buy a pig in a poke.

And we haven't even brought up what "going there" actually requires. It if requires reading your claims and finding them meaningful, then it could be a moot point because so far I have not found them so and I don't see any way to willfully change that on my end, without lying to my supposedly non-existent self.

Tell you what. What you call the memeplex that gives me the false impression of an observing self, I'm going to call my observing self. That way neither of us is wrong.

So, yes, of course it will be your choice. You can hold yourself hostage, or you can jump...
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I've heard sellers of over-priced luxury cars use manipulative phrases like that. "Don't hold yourself hostage!" "Don't you deserve the best?" "You only live once, you know." I can only assume that such blarney sometimes works.

A wise man once offered better advice: "Never obey anyone's command unless it is coming from within you also."

And all the while, scientific method remains remarkably un-devastated.
 
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Fudbucker said:
If the brain is the mind, why doesn't the brain disappear when the mind shuts down?
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The mind is in the brain, and the mind disappears when the brain is lost.

This is like asking why the car doesn't disappear when the engine is removed.
 
Myriad said:
Disappointing cop-out. See the top row of this xkcd strip: https://xkcd.com/566/

The Matrix philosophy leads only to... The Matrix sequels. (See the bottom row of the same xkcd strip.) No place worth going to.




The ancient (1971) wisdom revealed in the great Deteriorata sums it up thusly: "Know thyself." (It then goes on to sagely advise, "If you need help, ask the FBI.")

You've gotten hold of a corner of some interesting ideas. The implications of strict materialism are indeed so precisely opposite to the world view of mysticism that on some level they're equivalent....
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I'd just like to say, for me at least, that was a great post. Thanks.
 
ehcks said:
The mind is in the brain, and the mind disappears when the brain is lost.

This is like asking why the car doesn't disappear when the engine is removed.
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But the brain doesn't disappear when the mind is lost. The possibility of one being present, while the other is gone, suggests a non-equivalence, no? Engines and cars aren't the same thing, right?
 
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