Materialism and Logic, mtually exclusive?

They used to say The Clapper could never be used in tandem with a second Clapper for turning on multiple devices: only one to a box. We may someday have boxes with two, even three Clappers. They used to say The Clapper couldn't properly distinguish between an actual human clap and the clap of common venereal disease caused by the bacterium neisseria gonorrhoeae. We've shown that to be o-so-wrong. New Clapper detection lights will glow only when an actual human clap is detected. These Clapper detection lights will help you determine the proper speed and loudness of your claps that are necessary to activate any subsequent Clapper. They used to say The Clapper couldn't help us to play chess, or tie shoes, or drive cars, and on and on and on. It can't, but the enclosed detailed instructions may help us understand how to model these exact same processes in a Better Clapper that may possibly one day exist. If it does. :)


If you can't dazzle'em with brilliance, baffle'em with bull----...
 
For rhetorical purposes let me ask, what is the basis to assert that humans "do illogic"? You claim that humans do things like "illogic" that machines don't without any basis other than to assert that it is true.
If you read more carefully, RandFan, I think you might find that you, somehow, totally misconstrued what stillthinkin wrote. But in so doing you, amazingly, have answered your own rhetorical question to him: what is the basis to assert that humans "do illogic"?

Think about it.
 
If you read more carefully, RandFan, I think you might find that you, somehow, totally misconstrued what stillthinkin wrote. But in so doing you, amazingly, have answered your own rhetorical question to him: what is the basis to assert that humans "do illogic"?

Think about it.

So you are claiming that by peforming logical deduction, we are showing that machines can't? Please. :rolleyes:
 
I guess if you find strawmen and disjointed satire funny.
A strawman? No.

The strawmen here are those who have faith they are the current most technically advanced Clapper design. These robots are otherwise known as Materialists. :)
 
If you read more carefully, RandFan, I think you might find that you, somehow, totally misconstrued what stillthinkin wrote. But in so doing you, amazingly, have answered your own rhetorical question to him: what is the basis to assert that humans "do illogic"?

Think about it.
You are making unwarranted assumptions. I don't assert that humans "do illogic".

PB, you are not making an argument. You are trying to make an appeal to a common but wrong intuitive assumption about humans. This was the basis for my arguments on this very forum for years. It was the inability to do what you yourself can't or won't do right now that compelled me to abandon such notions.

Look, if you claim that humans do something that machines don't as it relates to logic then it is up to you to explain what that is.

Your wink wink, nudge nudge, think about it is just rhetoric.

BTW, the question was asked rhetorically because I know that stillthinkin can't respond to all of the questions.
 
A strawman? No.

The strawmen here are those who have faith they are the current most technically advanced Clapper design. These robots are otherwise known as Materialists. :)
No one here that I know of is claiming that the answer simply lies in complexity (or lots of clappers). Humans gained the ability to achieve sustained flight not simply by creating a bigger bird wing. It required a fundamental understanding of the principles of aerodynamics. Flight is an emergent property of many different things. Consciousness will likewise be an emergent property of many things things and not simply an increase in complexity. If it were then the internet would now be sentient.
 
... Consciousness will ... be an emergent property of many things and not simply an increase in complexity.
Er, "things"? A materialist has nought to work with other than the possible arrangements of matter. :)

If it were then the internet would now be sentient.
When will it first become alive and self-aware? ;)
 
Do you mean that we can do logic habitually, without really concentrating, and that this is what you call "mechanical"? So, for example, the fact that we can argue "if x then y... not y... therefore not x" quite habitually, without really thinking too hard, it can therefore be done by a mechanism. Or perhaps you mean that it can be mechanical, because I have removed the propositions themselves and replaced them with the letters "x" and "y"? You use the word "inevitability" for both mechanical and logical results, but that does not mean that mechanisms and logic are the same thing.
Why do mechanisms and logic have to be "the same thing" before we can accept that mechanisms can do logic? "Wings" and "flight" are not the same thing but planes and birds can still fly.

When I say logic has inevitability I mean that if you are doing logic correctly (which is to say if you are doing logic at all) then your actions are predictable and inevitable. Like a forced move in chess. Obviously a machine could work in this way.

It is not clear that a machine - whether a lever or a computer - employs logic whatsoever. Causality among material things is not the source of logic, nor may logic be reduced to causality -- that at least is my contention.
So one thing can only be a source of another thing if it is the same kind of thing, is this your contention? And the same similarity must exist if one thing is to be reduced to another thing. But this just rules out all emergent or supervenient properties. In the other thread you mention I quoted the following:

"We can say that a high level phenomenon is weakly emergent with respect to a low-level domain when the high-level phenomenon arises from the low-level domain, but truths concerning that phenomenon are unexpected given the principles governing the low-level domain."
In this sense logic would be a weakly emergent phenomenon of certain configurations of the physical world.

In your view it would seem that brains and computers may causally implement illogic just as well as logic; in fact, we humans seem to do illogic much more efficiently than logic. If causality is the source of logic, then logic is no better than illogic.
This doesn't follow. Logic is usually better than illogic for creatures like humans as it better aids our survival. Or helps us satisfy desires that originally evolved to aid our survival.

Again, if the designer does correct logic and therefore the machine does logic... but the designer makes a mistake and the computer does not make the mistake, how is that not special pleading? The machine does what it is designed to do, whether logical or illogical.
I don't understand your point here. In as far as the human is doing logic he is also merely doing what he is "designed" to do by his training. Note, if he is doing correct logic then he is not exercising "free will" either (he is not free to infer that 1 + 1 = 3 while still being correct). Of course there may be rather more than just "logic" involved in programming a computer. But you are not arguing that human creativity or emotions make us different from machines so you can't really use that argument.

If the human restricts himself to doing logic there is an exact parallel between what he is doing and what a computer doing a similar task would be doing. Tiredness may cause him to reason incorrectly just as a fluctuation in voltage may cause a computer logic circuit to malfunction. The computer malfunctions in the sense that it is not correctly implementing its program. The programmer malfunctions in that he is not correctly implementing the specification he has been given.

So what is the ultimate arbiter of correctness? Who says that the specification is correct? Perhaps the writer of the specification was handed a requirement from the marketing department and simply (mechanically, logically) translated this into a set of technical requirements. Perhaps marketing pieced together their requirements by asking customers what they wanted. At each stage correctness is defined as compliance with the requirements set by the previous stage.

Let us suppose that there is some ultimate source for correctness. I think it is clear that this could not be an act of "logical inference". It would be the place where the buck has to stop, it couldn't be the kind of forced decision that a correct logical inference always is, a decision made inevitable by the very premises. If it was we could then question the correctness of the premises and so on, ad infinitum.

Of course I don't think there is or ever could be an absolute source of this sort for correctness or truth. In the case of the programmer the ultimate arbiter of what the machine ought to do, against which errors can be judged, is the profits of the company, driven by the need for everyone involved to make money and the customer to have certain problems solved (perhaps to make their businesses more profitable by better satisfying the needs of their consumers). We all want our material and other needs taken care of because we are evolved creatures who have survived this long precisely because we give a high priority to such things.

The buck doesn't actually stop anywhere. Evolved creatures have no justification for wanting the things they want. They don't want truth, they just want what they want. "Error" is what is prejudicial to survival. We see the natural world through the filter of evolutionary competition - we only see the survivors which means we see a world populated by those creatures who shun error. This includes humans.
 
So you are claiming that by peforming logical deduction, we are showing that machines can't? Please. :rolleyes:

Sorry, Taffer. That's not how I meant it. Let me run this sequence again...

For rhetorical purposes let me ask, what is the basis to assert that humans "do illogic"? You claim that humans do things like "illogic" that machines don't without any basis other than to assert that it is true.
If you read more carefully, RandFan, I think you might find that you, somehow, totally misconstrued what stillthinkin wrote. But in so doing you, amazingly, have answered your own rhetorical question to him: what is the basis to assert that humans "do illogic"?
By totally misconstruing what stillthinkin wrote... you are. :drool:
 
By totally misconstruing what stillthinkin wrote... you are.
One more thing. You are still begging the question. You have not established that humans can make errors in ways that machines don't. I understand that you don't want to deal with the crux of the problem and you would rather accuse me of some mistake that would prove your point but A.) You haven't demonstrated any error, B.) Even if you have you have not shown that it is somehow different from what a machine does.

You are still trying to appeal to intuition that machines are fundamentally different in the way they make decisions and error without establishing what the difference is.
 
Let's go back PB

It is not clear that a machine - whether a lever or a computer - employs logic whatsoever.
"It's not clear"? This isn't argument. It's an assertion.

Causality among material things is not the source of logic, nor may logic be reduced to causality -- that at least is my contention.
Here we have another assertion. Stillthinkin even admits that it is just a contention but is there any reason to agree?

In your view it would seem that brains and computers may causally implement illogic just as well as logic; in fact, we humans seem to do illogic much more efficiently than logic. If causality is the source of logic, then logic is no better than illogic.
(emphasis mine) Here we have a jump from "doing logic" to "doing illogic". It still has not been explained how humans process data and perform decision making tasks that is fundamentally different than humans. It has not even been demonstrated that humans make mistakes or errors in a way that machines don't. It is simply an assertion. It is circular logic. Humans do "illogic" and machines don't so therefore humans "do logic" and machines don't.

And note that even stillthinkin says "seem to do logic". His entire argument hinges on what seems to him is the difference. It's an appeal to intuition.

So, no, I did not misconstrue anything. It would be ever so nice if you could post argument consisting of premises that establish a definite proposition rather than all the wink wink nudge nudge rhetoric.
 
You have not established that humans can make errors in ways that machines don't
You have already done that, RandFan.

Rhetorically questioning friends and family over and over, knowing they have no time to deal with such things. would be an error. That you do so here suggests you are less inhibited in anonymous situations such as this forum. What machinery would be this inconsistent?

Such behavior is called "only human". I'm probably doing the same right now, calling you on this, when it's likely I'd never take someone to task so directly in person. In Texas it could result in gunfire.
 
You have already done that, RandFan.

Rhetorically questioning friends and family over and over, knowing they have no time to deal with such things. would be an error. That you do so here suggests you are less inhibited in anonymous situations such as this forum. What machinery would be this inconsistent?

Machinery that evolved rather than was designed, which consists largely of a hodgepodge of computational nodules whose connections exist where they do not do to a precise design, but due to the haphazard patterns of random chance.

Like I said earlier, take a circuit board and randomly add bits to it... discard those that do nothing and keep the ones that do anything at all, and repeat. Eventually, you might very well get a machine that acts as inconsistently as a human does...

Such behavior is called "only human".

Such an expression is called an 'anthropomorphicism'. Considering animals act that way too, it's a highly inaccurate expression.
 
Machinery that evolved rather than was designed, which consists largely of a hodgepodge of computational nodules whose connections exist where they do not do to a precise design, but due to the haphazard patterns of random chance.

Like I said earlier, take a circuit board and randomly add bits to it... discard those that do nothing and keep the ones that do anything at all, and repeat. Eventually, you might very well get a machine that acts as inconsistently as a human does...
Why anyone would ever want to deliberately build machinery that was totally unreliable is beyond me.
 
Why anyone would ever want to deliberately build machinery that was totally unreliable is beyond me.

So first you say that we can be wrong, but machines can't, and that is the difference. Then, when we correctly point out that you could create a machine which could be just as wrong as us, you say "why would anyone want to build such a machine"? Me thinks you are not discussing this honestly, sir.
 
Congratulations. After 14 pages you've reached the free-will conundrum; one of the reefs that sink materialism for those who think they have free-will.
 
You have already done that, RandFan.

Rhetorically questioning friends and family over and over, knowing they have no time to deal with such things. would be an error.
It is possible to make a point by asking a question. Which is why it was rhetorical. What exactly did you think a rhetorical question was? I did not want stillthinkin's posts to go unanswered.

But let's assume that I did in fact make an error. How was that error fundamentally different from anything a machine does?

You are still begging the question. I can give you many examples of computer "errors" however stillthinkin says those are not errors. Yet he won't tell me why they are different from what humans do. Neither will you.

So you fail on both A and B.

That you do so here suggests you are less inhibited in anonymous situations such as this forum. What machinery would be this inconsistent?
Again, assuming that I made some error which I haven't, assuming that this is an example of me being inconsistent which it's not, I could program a machine to make such errors and to be inconsistent. Human minds are the result of programing through evolution via natural selection. It's just our programing.

I'm curious PB. Do you believe in evolution?

Such behavior is called "only human". I'm probably doing the same right now, calling you on this, when it's likely I'd never take someone to task so directly in person. In Texas it could result in gunfire.
That such behavior is called "only human" is not proof that humans are fundamentally different in making errors. And your rhetoric about gunfire in Texas is supposed to have what purpose?
 
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Why anyone would ever want to deliberately build machinery that was totally unreliable is beyond me.
Boy, did that ever go right over your head.

It has nothing to do with "want". But that raises an excellent point. Scientists claim that humans are the result of natural selection. That we we are a bottom up design. There was no intention or look ahead aspect to the design. We were not intended to be unreliable. It was just the result of our unintelligent designer (natural selection) that we are like we are.

The point that you missed is that if we can build machinery that is unreliable so can natural selection.
 
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