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Mass for the Dead

shemp said:
What if I walked into a Catholic funeral and announced that the deceased was with Allah, or had been reincarnated, or was burning in the flames of hell?
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That would be bad chiefly because it would be offensive to the mourners present, not to the non-entity (dead person who no longer has feelings) they're mourning. Your analogy just reinforces Diogenes' earlier point: rituals concerning the dead are for the benefit of the living, which militates in favor of allowing the survivors to incorporate their memories of the deceased into their metaphysical cosmology however they see fit.
 
Melissa Johnson said:
In the past (with Catholics, at any rate) after-death and point-of-death baptisms have been a problem. Nowadays they are looked on with the appropriate sort of embarrassment and are certainly discouraged.
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So far as I am aware, the Catholic Church has never practiced postmortem baptisms or held that such a ritual has any effectiveness. Perhaps you have some other sect in mind?

As for adult point-of-death baptisms, to my knowledge, the Catholic Church continues to practice them on the same conditions it always has: where the dying person expresses a wish to have the ritual performed.
 
I want to say that my post was only about my friends and I ,
I have been to other funerals where a friend of mine has been characterized as 'being with the lord' , when they were such a dies in the wool materialist that they never took spirituality as anything other than a joke. But I was quiet and respectful, it is important to honot the memory of the dead by honoring the feelings of the living.
I did not want to suggest that anyone disrupt a service when it was not agreed upon in advance.

I thought a lot about this after seeing the movie Last Orders where some people honor thier friends last wishes, no where do they really do it for spiritual reasons. They do it for themselves in memory of him

Peace
 
To circumvent any wishes on your wife's part after you die just write a letter to the bishop and CC the local pastor.

"Dear paedophile pimp,
I do not want my remains to be used to further your bogus witchcraft.
Sincerely..."
 
Supercharts said:
To circumvent any wishes on your wife's part after you die just write a letter to the bishop and CC the local pastor.

"Dear paedophile pimp,
I do not want my remains to be used to further your bogus witchcraft.
Sincerely..."
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This could have opposite the desired effect.. They might decide you 'really' need praying for...
 
ceo_esq said:

So far as I am aware, the Catholic Church has never practiced postmortem baptisms or held that such a ritual has any effectiveness. Perhaps you have some other sect in mind?

As for adult point-of-death baptisms, to my knowledge, the Catholic Church continues to practice them on the same conditions it always has: where the dying person expresses a wish to have the ritual performed.
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No, you're right--post-mortem baptisms are kind of impossible.

According to anecdotal accounts and possible urban legend (which no doubt led to unhappy circumstances)--babies had been baptized by laypersons--i.e. doctors, whomever--without parental consent. I'll have to consult my old pre-Vatican II literature, but there are cases where you can baptize without vocal consent, if I recall correctly...and I reserve, as always, the right to be wrong :D
 
Luke T... are you saying I should hedge my bet, just in case there is a god? I am asking my wife to respect me and my wishes. How could I in all concience ask that of another if I don't respect myself? Should I out of fear disrespect all that I am, all that I believe? Sorry, I cannot be hypocritical like that.

What is the logic argument named for this situation? I am too lazy to look it up.
 
Diogenes...My wife's religious views are her own. I am asking out of respect (not demanding) that she take into account my beliefs and way of life. As I said to LukeT, it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to hedge my eternal bet and I feel it would be disrespectful of the life that I led if she were to have a 'public' display of religion in my name.

Walt Disney productions screams bloody murder if someone tries to use their characters without permission, I feel I have the same right to my own intellectual property.
 
My comment is simple: Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

Last fall when my mom died, I had a religious funeral. She was religious and all of her friends were, so I figured whatever closure they got was good.

I figure giving them some closure was mine.
 
jimmygun said:
Diogenes...My wife's religious views are her own. I am asking out of respect (not demanding) that she take into account my beliefs and way of life. As I said to LukeT, it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to hedge my eternal bet and I feel it would be disrespectful of the life that I led if she were to have a 'public' display of religion in my name.

Walt Disney productions screams bloody murder if someone tries to use their characters without permission, I feel I have the same right to my own intellectual property.
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But Disney actually owns those characters and is around to assert its rights.

What you're trying to is similar to what the law calls mortua manus or "dead hand" control. In law, it's generally discouraged in various ways - it's considered bad policy to enable, figuratively, a "dead hand" to reach out from beyond the grave and meddle unduly with the affairs of the living. Why? Among other reasons, frankly, because dead people are not a going concern and don't really have any rights per se; it's generally far more important to give living people a free hand to make decisions that suit the needs of, well, the living.

It's a difficult situation, and if I were you I'd certainly discuss your wishes with your wife so she can bear them in mind. But you have to keep something in perspective: when you're gone, you're gone. Like you, I also want my memory to be respected, but I realize that it's "my" memory only in a descriptive sense (because it relates to me), not a true possessive sense. The memories themselves will actually belong to my family and friends. Their memories of me are a part of them, not a part of me. My only legitimate opportunity to influence that memory is while I'm alive, so I'll focus on that.
 
ceo_esq,

Like you, I also want my memory to be respected, but I realize that it's "my" memory only in a descriptive sense (because it relates to me), not a true possessive sense. The memories themselves will actually belong to my family and friends. Their memories of me are a part of them, not a part of me.
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Right again, as always! Do you charge by the hour??

My only legitimate opportunity to influence that memory is while I'm alive, so I'll focus on that.
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A perfect philosophy for life, IMO.
 
ceo...After I'm gone I'm gone? Is Mozart gone? Is Shakespeare gone? I am not comparing myself to those giants, my memory will only be kept among a small number of people and will die some time after. You are right that the memory becomes the property of the living but I would like as a final passing to preserve the correctness of that memory.

If a smear campaign started after I died and no one was there to defend my memory, those that live after me would have to bear the brunt. If someone makes my memory out to be something it is not then those that survive me are cheated out of the real thing. How many times have you or others gone to a funeral to celebrate the life of the departed only to hear anything but what they were truly like?

As much for my own peace of mind as that of the people I leave behind, I would like to preserve an as close to accurate account of my life (which I have taken such care and trouble to lead) as can be expected.

If my wife said she could not refrain from giving a mass in my memory than I would expect an appointed friend to be given the opportunity to rebut.

It may seem like I am making a mountain out of a mole hill but it is important to me to not just knuckle under to the influence of religion and allow them to make coin in my memory. That is not how I live my life now nor is it the way I wish to be sent off.
 
jimmygun said:
Diogenes...My wife's religious views are her own. I am asking out of respect (not demanding) that she take into account my beliefs and way of life. As I said to LukeT, it would be hypocritical and disrespectful of me to hedge my eternal bet and I feel it would be disrespectful of the life that I led if she were to have a 'public' display of religion in my name.

Walt Disney productions screams bloody murder if someone tries to use their characters without permission, I feel I have the same right to my own intellectual property.
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But, you seem to continue to ignore the point, that in having her respect your religious ( or lack thereof ) views, you are showing disrespect for hers.

It couldn't be more simple.

I'm not saying ' good ' or ' bad ', 'right' or 'wrong', I'm just pointing out an obvious conflict of interest that you cannot seem to acknowledge.
 
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