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Malmoesoldier, et al., Explain How Pearl Harbor Was a LIHOP

Based on what Malmoesoldier said in this post, I don't think he'll be stopping by here to provide even a shred of evidence to support his Pearl Harbor claim.

A not entirely unsurprising development really...
 
Time enough to think about - while he´s on it, maybe he finds time to help me out here:


I wonder what would have happened, if the US were aware of an upcoming attack -

They would surely look for these japanese aircraft-carriers - no easy task in those days.

In case USAF would have found them - would they have attacked?

In case they would have attacked - would there be no more war between Japan and the US?

Japan wouldn´t start its offensive in south-east Asia? All problems solved?
No war at all?


I never understood how american previous knowledge could have prevented pacific war.
Would Congress not have gone with Roosevelt because it was just a japanese attempt to strike first?

Please help me understand...

(I have similar problems with the cd-claims of wtc1/2 because I don´t see how american reaction would be different if the towers would have survived and just burnt some time, so I can´t understand why the NWO made things needless complicated, increasing the risk - but that´s not the place to settle this, I know. Sorry!)
 
Quick little question that goes against the idea of LIHOP:

Those who have read about the attack on the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor are aware of the role the Japanese midget subs had in the attack, and how ineffective they were. From this, we know that the first shots in the Pacific Theater of War were fired by the USS Ward on one of the five midget subs used by Japan on the attack, a few hours before the attack began.

What was the name of the ship that actually spotted the midget sub?

Answer:

USS Condor
 
Henry Crun said:
I wonder what would have happened, if the US were aware of an upcoming attack -
Click to expand...

I assume that they would have put to sea, however, given the peace time attitudes (don't do anything rash) prevelent in the U.S. Navy comand structure at the time, I wonder if Kimmel would have even done that.

They would surely look for these japanese aircraft-carriers - no easy task in those days.

In case USAF would have found them - would they have attacked?
Click to expand...


A few technical points here: It would have been the Navy's job to search for the carriers, not the U.S. Army Air Corp. (The USAF did not exist in 1941).

If they the Navy suceeded in locating the task force before they launched their planes, I think the Japanese would have attacked anyway, if nothing more than to defend thier ships.

In case they would have attacked - would there be no more war between Japan and the US?
Click to expand...

It would have made little difference in the long run.

Japan wouldn´t start its offensive in south-east Asia? All problems solved?
Click to expand...

Most of the attacks against the Americans in south east Asia were made hours after the Pearl Harbor attacks, yet they were successfull anyway.
Peace time inertia is a hard thing the overcome.
 
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Henry Crun said:
Time enough to think about - while he´s on it, maybe he finds time to help me out here:


I wonder what would have happened, if the US were aware of an upcoming attack -

They would surely look for these japanese aircraft-carriers - no easy task in those days.

In case USAF would have found them - would they have attacked?

In case they would have attacked - would there be no more war between Japan and the US?

Japan wouldn´t start its offensive in south-east Asia? All problems solved?
No war at all?


I never understood how american previous knowledge could have prevented pacific war.
Would Congress not have gone with Roosevelt because it was just a japanese attempt to strike first?

Please help me understand...

(I have similar problems with the cd-claims of wtc1/2 because I don´t see how american reaction would be different if the towers would have survived and just burnt some time, so I can´t understand why the NWO made things needless complicated, increasing the risk - but that´s not the place to settle this, I know. Sorry!)
Click to expand...

BTW thats US Army Air Corps, USAF didn't exist until after the end of the war.

No, the US would not have attacked because:

The US and Japan were still at peace and engaged in [futile] negotiations to settle their differences. Attacking the Japanese task force at sea without a declaration of war would have been a bad way to start a war and, in a sense, roughly equivalent to the attack on Pearl Harbor except in reverse with negative influences on US public opinion. To prove otherwise [that the Japanese planned a surprise attack] would require that the US expose its cryptanalytic efforts, possibly to the point of revealing specific messages that pointed to an attack on Pearl Harbor.

It should be noted that the Japanese didn't plan on starting the war without a declaration, it just worked out that way. So Pearl Harbor would still have been a surprise attack, just that it was supposed to be AFTER the ultimatum was delivered -- the basic idea with surprise that even if the enemy got word of the incoming attack they would be unable to change dispositions or mount an effective defense or counter-action which is why the ultimatum was supposed to be delivered at 1 PM Eastern (7 AM Hawaii) with the assumption that there would not be enough time to pass the alert to affected commands much less that the alerted commands could do anything constructive. In any case, since no such message [e.g. "We will attack Pearl Harbor"] was sent, it would be moot.

On the second, if the US was overwhelmingly successful in striking the IJN task force, sinking all the carriers, Japan might have conceded rather than continue what would have been a "illegal" surprise attack on their forces and a presumptive declaration of war by the US. Probably Japan would have continued the war since the US would have been in turmoil due to the "surprise attack on the peaceful Japanese". A Japanese strike at the Phillipines might have been viewed as "retaliation" for the "treacherous US attack". This assumes that the US attacked before Japan delivered its ultimatum.

It should be remembered that the war faction in Japan was invested in the idea of establishing a Japanese Empire to secure for itself resources for its industry. It would be an incredible loss of face to give up on that. OTOH, the war faction might have been toppled in favor of a peace faction. So there is that possibility.

In the end, if the US had tumbled to the surprise attack, and changed its dispositions to mount as effective defense as possible, and managed to conceal all that from the spy at the Consulate, that the best that might have been achieved would be to scare off the Japanese task force. They [the IJN task force] were under orders to withdraw if discovered prior to Dec 7 with discretion to proceed if discovered on Dec 7. Remember that until the ultimatum (Japan's effective declaration of war) was delivered the US could not lawfully attack the task force.

(IMO)
 
Fezzic, if a US scout plane or submarine found the Japanese task force and was detected by said task force, would they have hesitated to attack the plane or the sub?
 
Alferd_Packer said:
It would have made little difference in the long run.
Click to expand...


I agree. Japan hit Pearl Harbor to keep the US out of the Pacific so that they could conquer China, Korea, Russia, Australia and everybody else on the rim before we could stop them.

They succeeded at Pearl Harbor but still failed in their ultimate goal.

Had they failed in Hawaii, they couldn't have missed every single one of their ultimate objectives any more than they actually did.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
Fezzic, if a US scout plane or submarine found the Japanese task force and was detected by said task force, would they have hesitated to attack the plane or the sub?
Click to expand...

IMO yes they would have hesitated. They were not at war yet.

As I understand the orders to Adm. Nagumo, he was to withdraw if detected early after all, if he continued with the planned attack, the USN would presumably have gone to heightened alert, maybe even sortied the BBs, which would increase the risks while reducing the hoped for gains. He had discretion to withdraw or attack if detected on Dec 7. The carriers in his task force were relatively irreplaceable and therefore extremely valuable to the Empire.

I believe that Nagumo's orders probably encompassed withdrawing if even only a merchant ship sighted the task force before a given date.

Now if the strike had been launched or the attack underway, then Japan is at war (at that point Japan would have, if all had gone according to plan, already delivered their ultimatum/declaration of war to the US prior to the attack) and defending the task force, attempting to deny the US knowledge of its whereabouts, is a natural expectation so they would not have hesitated to attack any US patrol aircraft or submarine.
 
Loss Leader said:
I agree. Japan hit Pearl Harbor to keep the US out of the Pacific so that they could conquer China, Korea, Russia, Australia and everybody else on the rim before we could stop them.

They succeeded at Pearl Harbor but still failed in their ultimate goal.

Had they failed in Hawaii, they couldn't have missed every single one of their ultimate objectives any more than they actually did.
Click to expand...

Not to derail the topic, but....they did fail.

Yes, the attack did succeed in many areas, but the entire strategical purpose of the attacks, namely, to knock out the Pacific Fleet, was an utter failure.

The third wave was never launched. The repair depots and facilities were untouched. The carriers were not in port, and were also completely untouched. Fuel storage areas were also left relatively untouched.

In short, despite the destruction of quite a few ships, the Japanese attack was a blunder. It was an utter strategic failure.
 
Further nitpicking: The US Army Air Corps was superseded by the US Army Air Forces in June, 1941, so neither USAF or USAAC would be accurate for December, 1941. Although the change probably did not find its way into popular usage for a while.

OK, I'll go back to sticking my nose in a book.
 
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