Magnets

[robbersdog]

A good friend of mine uses a magnetic bracelet to help his joint pain after a motorbike crash. I don't believe it works, but he is sure it does. I need help. Does anyone know of any scientific studies into this? He also believes in the magnets people are trying to sell for cars which fit around the fuel pipe and improve fuel ecconomy and power. If you have any info on either of the uses of magnets I'd be grateful. Proper scientific studies would be good, I really don't know where to start looking.

Thankyou all for your help in advance!

 

[wayrad]

A good friend of mine uses a magnetic bracelet to help his joint pain after a motorbike crash. I don't believe it works, but he is sure it does. I need help. Does anyone know of any scientific studies into this? He also believes in the magnets people are trying to sell for cars which fit around the fuel pipe and improve fuel ecconomy and power. If you have any info on either of the uses of magnets I'd be grateful. Proper scientific studies would be good, I really don't know where to start looking.

Thankyou all for your help in advance!

Apparently some of the latter devices have been evaluated by EPA - see

http://www.womanmotorist.com/index.php/news/main/1904/event=View/page=1

The last page gives a contact name for test results. Those things have been around a long time - my dad bought one back in the 40's. Said it was a waste of $0.25. I'm sure the price has gone up since then, but the effectiveness hasn't.

 

[Thanz]

A good friend of mine uses a magnetic bracelet to help his joint pain after a motorbike crash. I don't believe it works, but he is sure it does. I need help. Does anyone know of any scientific studies into this? He also believes in the magnets people are trying to sell for cars which fit around the fuel pipe and improve fuel ecconomy and power. If you have any info on either of the uses of magnets I'd be grateful. Proper scientific studies would be good, I really don't know where to start looking.

Thankyou all for your help in advance!

I'd focus on the car thing and leave the bracelet alone. It sounds as though he already has the bracelet, and if he swears it is "working" for him, let it be. Likely it is a placebo effect, and if he feels better I don't see what is to be gained by shattering the illusion.

For the car thing though, you could probably save him a few bucks. I see that wayrad has already linked to some studies.

 

[Starrman]

I'd focus on the car thing and leave the bracelet alone. It sounds as though he already has the bracelet, and if he swears it is "working" for him, let it be. Likely it is a placebo effect, and if he feels better I don't see what is to be gained by shattering the illusion.

Yes, believing in lies is not dangerous at all. Let's wait until he's taking shark cartilage for cancer before we tell him what's really going on.

 

[Thanz]

Yes, believing in lies is not dangerous at all. Let's wait until he's taking shark cartilage for cancer before we tell him what's really going on.

From what I read in the post, he is not using it to try and cure an illness, or ignoring medicinal cures or treatment. He is using it to allieviate pain. That is altogether different. What is the harm in using the bracelet instead of popping a Tylenol?

 

[Wudang]

The bracelet may help simply because his faith in it changes his perception of the pain. Most of these seem to claim they work by attracting blood which has iron and is therefore magnetic - except blood is diamagnetic rather than ferromagnetic so if there was any effect it would be in the opposite direction. Parks' "Voodoo Science" describes buying one of these and finding that they were basically fridge magnets with alternating strips so you get a very strong field at the surface but which dies off very quickly. He experimented with sheets of paper and showed that the magnetic effect would not penetrate the skin.

 

[Starrman]

Tylenol is a proven medicine. Magnets are a placebo at best.

Either way, I'm not arguing weather or not it is an illness. I'm trying to point out that believing that the magnet is increasing blood flow to your joint and thusly relieving the pain is not only wrong, it fosters the kind of thinking that can be dangerous. Some Christian Scientists do not use medical doctors and rely on prayer to cure all or let God take em'.

This is the same basic type of thinking, taken to the extreme. The danger is in the thinking behind the action, not the action itself.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Starrman-
I'm going to call you on your statement 'This is the same basic type of thinking, taken to the extreme'.

This is in itself an example of basic thinking taken to an extreme.

Base jumping might be viewed as 'the same thing as stepping off a kerb', taken to extremes. I pick a deliberately exaggerated example to emphasise the point. The two things are clearly not the same, though they share certain characteristics..

Unless you can prove that there is a progressive continuum of common thought between accepting one harmless (albeit ineffective) device and taking up extreme views rejecting modern medecine, then your argument is not watertight.

It's an argument we all use, about many things. I think it's one we need to use with caution.

 

[Ratman_tf]

Perhaps the problem is not that people believe in something that doesn't work, but when they continue to believe in something that doesn't work after being shown explicitly that it can't do what it says (Magnetic fields that can't even penetrate human skin, and would have the opposite effect of what their proponents claim, and is very likely just a placebo) and continue to believe. You can continue to believe in Santa Claus as an adult, but what do you do when he doesn't leave you any gifts this year? Complain in the newspaper? Plan a trip to the north pole to kick his arse? Wonky thinking leads to wonky actions.

 

[Soapy Sam]

He always leaves presents for me!
Maybe you haven't been good?


I'm still awaiting a reply from my complaint to a major UK chain store about their selling of this junk. (see thread in commentary section).

I'm wary of the debating tactic of equating the two ends of a spectrum and assuming anyone who accepts one end must accept the other. It's a dodgy argument, best avoided.

 

[trotsky]

Thanz : the braclet is fraud and nonsense whilst the drug is a proven medicine. what is your point ,it's ok for the gulible to be taken by fraudsters? do you think this is ok?

 

[Starrman]

I'm going to call you on your statement 'This is the same basic type of thinking, taken to the extreme'.

Fair enough.

This is in itself an example of basic thinking taken to an extreme.

I'm not sure if you are saying what I am doing is an example, or if your subsequent analogy is an example. Please clarify.

Base jumping might be viewed as 'the same thing as stepping off a kerb', taken to extremes. I pick a deliberately exaggerated example to emphasise the point. The two things are clearly not the same, though they share certain characteristics..

Those are two things that people actually do. People jump off of a curb, people jump off of bridges. Are you saying that more tame adventurers aren't more likely to get into something like base jumping?

My point was not at all that the act was the same, it was the thinking behind the act was. The thought is, well it makes me feel better so I don't need to seek medical attention. First its a magnetic bracelet, then it is homeopathic remedies for a cold, then it's accupuncture and chiropractors and so forth. Obviously I do not mean that this will always be the case, but I would bet that any person that died taking some wacky alternative treatment jumped on the bad critical thinking train a long time ago with something far less dangerous. That is why I was carefull to say "in the extreme." I had hoped this clarified that I was not equating the ends of the spectrum, as you stated, but the similarity in the thoughts behind each end of the spectrum.

 

[Thanz]

As a general reply to all:

He already has the bracelet. Telling him it shouldn't work will not prevent the fraud- it has already happened. I agree that it is a placebo at best. But if the placebo effect is working for him, why screw it up? If his pain is relieved, why take tylenol as well?

I am not impressed by slippery slope arguments without evidence. One can make the slippery slope argument for almost anything, like how not paying attention in class leads to drinking windex in the street.

My recommendation remains the same - let him have his stupid bracelet, but try to stop other junk from invading his life. Eventually, he may come to the correct decision on the bracelet himself.

 

[Starrman]

My recommendation remains the same - let him have his stupid bracelet, but try to stop other junk from invading his life.

I'll agree with this, it may have actually been my point - to explain why it didn't work so he would think more critically about this and similar things in the future.

I think I used too strong of an example to try and get to exactly what you said.