Maggie Thatcher

[Giz]

I doubt if you'd find anyone in the UK (other than Giz) who'd agree with you, and I doubt you'd find any evidence to support this claim either. With her attachment to "traditional values", Thatcher probably did more to set back women's causes than any other leader in the past 60 years.

But the amount of women moving into professional/managerial roles increased exponentially during Thatchers terms!

I think people are just galled that the Tories (with the only Woman PM and the only non-Christian PM in British history) are the party of equality - if you can do the job you're in! Labourites should remember the old saying "those who live under glass ceilings should not throw stones".

 

[Tony]

If your country was in the crapper before and Thatcher proved to be incompetent, what ultimately turned the UK economy around?

 

[Jon_in_london]

I've also heard accusations that the Falklands War was, jointly, a blatant vote-winning exercise and a successful attempt to secure deep-water oil reserves off the islands.

Uh... I hope you dont actually swallow that?

Look at the facts, Maggie's government was in the process of flogging off and breaking up our last two carriers, without them we couldnt have even tried to fight back.

 

[wollery]

And suppose she did? OhmyGod!!!! A PRIVATELY-OWNED RAILWAY!!! The horror! The horror!

Actually it was John Major who oversaw the selling of the railways, which probably wouldn't have been too bad if it weren't for the way it was done.

I don't actually think that very much of what Maggie did was all that bad, she altered trade union legislation to make it far more sensible and remove a lot of the power the union leaders had over their members (a bloody good thing given who some of those leaders were). She was also a very good international representative and could not be bullied into giving up an inch of UK interests to the EU. Some of the privatisations were good, British Telecom for example, but some were ill-advised.

I think that the main problem people had was not what she did, but the way that she did it. She came across as arrogant, elitist and insensitive, and by the time she was kicked out by her own party she seemed to believe that she was some sort of president. The fact that she was surrounded by corrupt greedy sycophants who were constantly being caught in compromising situations didn't help much either.

 

[Giz]

I think that the main problem people had was not what she did, but the way that she did it. She came across as arrogant, elitist and insensitive, and by the time she was kicked out by her own party she seemed to believe that she was some sort of president. The fact that she was surrounded by corrupt greedy sycophants who were constantly being caught in compromising situations didn't help much either.

Exactly, her self belief grated badly on the arrogant lefties who believed they knew best.

 

[Skeptic]

Actually it was John Major who oversaw the selling of the railways, which probably wouldn't have been too bad if it weren't for the way it was done.

I'm not saying it was necessarily a GOOD thing; for all I know it was screwed up and a bad idea.

I'm merely commenting that if THIS is AUP's "evidence" for Tacher being one of the most awful human beings ever, something's a bit wrong with his perspective.

You'd think that, say, mass murder would be higher on the list than privatising the railroads...

 

[Darat]

...snip...



And suppose she did? OhmyGod!!!! A PRIVATELY-OWNED RAILWAY!!! The horror! The horror!

Just thought it very funny that AUP gave this a reason for criticism of Thatcher - especically since she didn't!

 

[Ed]

The big sticking point here is the circumstances and should she have altered the rules of engagement to make it a legitimate target? Unless we can replay the moment and see the outcome it is one of those decisions which we can never know if it was the best/right decision or not.

Not to belabor the point but, during wartime, having a major enemy asset in your sights and not destroying it is malfeasence, I would think.

 

[Ed]

The fact that she was surrounded by corrupt greedy sycophants who were constantly being caught in compromising situations didn't help much either.

I have the feeling that this is universal and not characteristic of Maggie or any US President, either. Sad, really.

 

[Shaun from Scotland]

Exactly, her self belief grated badly on the arrogant lefties who believed they knew best.

If ever there was anyone who thought they knew best it was Thatcher. A self belief which destroyed the Union and ultimately cost her her job............

 

[Ed]

If ever there was anyone who thought they knew best it was Thatcher. A self belief which destroyed the Union and ultimately cost her her job............

I wonder how much this is a characteristic of powerful people and not specific to Maggie. I really don't think that I would want a leader, of a party or of a company, that was not arrogant.

 

[Virgil]

she had a degree in chemistry I'm told. So there is still hope I can go out a lead a country.

Virgil

 

[Darat]

But the amount of women moving into professional/managerial roles increased exponentially during Thatchers terms!

I think people are just galled that the Tories (with the only Woman PM and the only non-Christian PM in British history) are the party of equality - if you can do the job you're in! Labourites should remember the old saying "those who live under glass ceilings should not throw stones".

And just remind me how many female cabinet Ministers Thatcher had?

 

[Darat]

Not to belabor the point but, during wartime, having a major enemy asset in your sights and not destroying it is malfeasence, I would think.

I don't disagree. The claim, for people who supported the attack is that it ensured that the Argentineans kept their ships close to ports in the subsequent conflict. That's what I was referring to about the "replay" of history needed to tell us if sinking was a good decision or not.

One other point about this is the allegation that Thatcher initially lied about the attack e.g. she stated the General Belgrano wasn't leaving the exclusion zone. That stuck to her throughout the subsequent years.

 

[Darat]

I've read about this but my grasp of certain details is hazy. Didn't Scargill call a strike without putting it to a vote of the union first? IIRC another trade union leader said of him "He went into the strike with a big union and a small house, and he came out of it with a small union and a big house".

It was not a strike for "pay and conditions" but for political power, don’t forget back in 82 the miners came out on strike as “support” for the health worker’s pay claims!

Scargill, like many socialists, hated the Conservatives and thought he could repeat the actions that had brought down previous governments. Thankfully he didn’t bring down a government but it was his members that paid the cost of his political ambitions.

The amount of poverty caused by the Scargill’s actions was heart wrenching. As I say I lived in a mining & mill town at that time and whilst the town didn’t have much sympathy for the miners claims (general opinion was it was a cushy number – well paid etc.) there was great support on the personal level. So many miners lost everything their homes, their cars and even their families and it was caused by a power hungry, selfish, pathetic man.


(Edited for a superflously, supflouslous, oh damn it - an extra "their".)

 

[Darat]

Yes, you mentioned it in passing

Serious question though: Why? From the examples and explanations you've given here, you seem to think she did a good job in many areas. Obviously there is something you disapproved of - what was it?

Really needs a long, long answer. But let me try to do a short version.

First of all I admit a total emotionally based bias - she was the hate figure for people of my political persuasion when I was young and very active in politics. We'd have believed she bathed in virgin's blood!

However I think the thing that really grates me is that the picture that is painted of Thatcher and her own rhetoric just don't stand up to scrutiny.

She never controlled social security, despite her proclamations to the contra, she was one of the leaders who completely wasted the only reason we didn't want devolution for Scotland i.e. their oil, she didn't invest in key areas of the country's infrastructure which has left us with facing decades of rebuilding major parts of the country but sank almost unaccountable public money into her pet projects e.g. .the Channel tunnel.

All in all she was incompetent as a PM.

 

[Shaun from Scotland]

I wonder how much this is a characteristic of powerful people and not specific to Maggie. I really don't think that I would want a leader, of a party or of a company, that was not arrogant.

There is a difference between arrogance and pig-headed stupidity. In her later years in office, Thatcher was like someone who is trying to push open a door when there is a sign on it saying pull. "I don't care what it says it will bend to my will".

She could not counteanace being wrong. Lots of people in her party told her the Poll tax was a mistake. She wouldn't, and indeed couldn't, listen..

How the Poll tax went was interesting to analyse. Thatcher was initially against it, yet was persuaded of it's benefits, largely by the current Tory leader Michael Howard. Once she had made her mind up, she was a fanatic about it. This is not a good quality for a leader. A leader must be able to admit they are wrong, even if they disguise it with spin. Thatcher's fall was her fault and her fault alone.

 

[Ed]

There is a difference between arrogance and pig-headed stupidity.

Yes. I see your point. That is a very bad combination.

 

[a_unique_person]

Yeh, its not like there was a war on or anything.

It was an old, WWII class battleship, that was sailing away from the conflict when it was sunk. It never had a chance against a modern submarine.

The war was a stupid storm in a teacup that both sides should be ashamed of themselves for indulging in.

 

[Interesting Ian]

I actively campaigned against Thatcher and the Conservatives throughout her period in office. As a young person in politics at the time I loathed her and I still do.

Yea, she was an utterly despicable human being.