Lust vs adultery

[saizai]

Which of the following are adultery, and why? Which of them are 'immoral' and why (if the answer is different)? If gender or type of sex (manual, oral, vaginal, anal, other) is relevant, please specify in your answer and explain why.

Feel free to answer a bunch all at once.

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse
2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse
4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else
5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone
6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent
7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent
8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent
9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consent
10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyone
11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbating
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy *
41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at them


* Note that I just made you do so, by having read the question

 

[jesus_freak]

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse SIN
2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse SIN
4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else SIN
5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone SIN
6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent OK IF YOUR SPOUSE IS OPPOSITE SEX AND YOU ARE MARRIED
7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent SIN
8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent SIN
9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consentSIN
10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyoneSIN
11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbatingSIN
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbatingSIN
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy * DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS
41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at themSIN

Does this help or do you not really care?

 

[clarsct]

1, 4, 7, and 9. Mainly because they involve issues of trust and consent.

Gay/straight matters not to me. It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket. I am personally straight, married. But I could care less if you are both, neither or any combination thereof.


The only sins involve hurting others unnecessarily.


All else is Bull****.

 

[Lonewulf]

Does this help or do you not really care?

He asked you to explain why, but that's no problem. I keep getting points off for not reading the full question in school, so I won't hold you accountable.

You explained that it's a sin to have sex with your spouse without their consent. Is this written somewhere, or is this just in your opinion?

 

[saizai]

Does this help or do you not really care?

You didn't answer my questions.

I asked:
a) is it adultery
b) if yes, why
c) is it immoral
d) if yes, why (just saying "SIN" is inadequate and imprecise - which one exactly?)


You only answered (c), and that only if you claim that immorality is identical to sin, which doesn't seem to be true for any common definition of 'morality'.

Additionally, your response for #6 was ambiguous. What about someone whose sex and gender are not identical? E.g. if Adam has sex with Bob his spouse; Bob was born a female, and they married when Bob was a female, but Bob is now an FTM transexual whose genitals have not been surgically changed but who is on male hormones, dresses as a male, identifies as male, and is socially recognizable as male.

"Think about but not as fantasy" means considering and possibly visualizing some act, but not with simultaneous sexual arousal as a result of doing so.

 

[saizai]

1, 4, 7, and 9. Mainly because they involve issues of trust and consent.

What about 11,21,31,41/4/7/9?

 

[spidermike]

I am agnostic/atheist (depending on your point of view) so I would define morality as a common consensus within the society aimed at a making sure everyone in the society understands a common set of 'rules' for behaviour. These 'morals' are then coloured by each person's own opinion.

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse - not immoral. It is the married person who could end up hurting/offending their partner. This is about deception and breach of trust
2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse - not immoral - if they consent who is getting hurt?
4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else - see (1) and (2)
5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone - not immoral
6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent - not immoral
7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent difficult - you would (?) generally know if your partner would find it offensive. Some people like being 'woken up' in this way (not immoral). Others would hate the lack of conrol they have in the decision or the act (immoral)
8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent- see 6
9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consent- see 7
10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyone - not immoral
11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbating - not immoral
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating - not immoral
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy *
41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at them - not immoral

 

[MRC_Hans]

Which of the following are adultery, and why? Which of them are 'immoral' and why (if the answer is different)? If gender or type of sex (manual, oral, vaginal, anal, other) is relevant, please specify in your answer and explain why.

I'm not sure that the concept of adultery exists in my book at all, so I'll answer from a moral POV.

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse

Taking part in infidelity is problematic, but the married person is a free person and must take their own responsibilities, so: OK.

2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse

A tad kinky, but otherwise no problem. (Will the spouse be looking on?)

4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else

Precisely the same as #1.

5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone

OK (I am here assuming that my own status is not part of the equation).

6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent

OK.

7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent

Wrong.

8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent

OK.

9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consent

Wrong. Having sex with anybody without their consent is wrong.

10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyone

OK.

11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbating
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy *
41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at them

OK.

Hans

 

[Shevek-72]

Which of the following are adultery, and why? Which of them are 'immoral' and why (if the answer is different)? If gender or type of sex (manual, oral, vaginal, anal, other) is relevant, please specify in your answer and explain why.

As always a matter of definition.

One may be:
"voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse."
so that would be: 1,2.

I've also found: "sex outside marriage".
in that case: 1-5,8-10

For me the whole concept of defining a relationship by sexual fidelity does not hold much value in our times. Morally I only care about 7 and 9, rape is totally unacceptable.

Concerning 11-50: Die Gedanken sind frei

 

[clarsct]

What about 11,21,31,41/4/7/9?

11, 21, 31, 41 all involve fantasy. Fantasy hurts no-one.

I already answered 4, 7, and 9.

For ease, I'll go through each one.

1. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, without the consent of their spouse

I initially voted immoral, but now I an reconsidering. Knowingly assisting a breach of trust is immoral. It's like being an accomplice to murder. You didn't do the murder, but you condone/assisted/hid it. On the other hand, if they are coming on to me, then the relationship has deeper problems. I would say that knowingly seducing such a person is wrong, but for them to seduce you, then they are wrong, but you're in the clear.

2. Having sex with someone who is married to someone else, with the consent of their spouse

No problems here!

4. Having sex with someone who is not married but is dating someone else

Same as the marriage question, with the exception of defining the word 'dating'. If they are in a serious, commited relationship, then it is exactly the same situation as 1. If they are dating, as in they hang out a screw sometimes, then you're ok, though you may wish to take precautions...

5. Having sex with someone who is not married and is not seeing anyone

Moral

6. Having sex with your spouse, with their consent

Erm. Moral.

7. Having sex with your spouse, without their consent

Immoral. Always.

8. Having sex with your potential future spouse, with their consent

Moral.

9. Having sex with your potential future spouse, without their consent

Immoral. Always.

10. Having sex with someone who will never marry anyone

Moral.

11-20. Fantasizing about 1-10 while masturbating
21-30. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating
31-40. Thinking of 1-10, but not necessarily as a fantasy *
41-50. Fantasizing about 1-10 without masturbating but in their presence while looking at them

11-50 are always moral. I fantasize about killing 75% of the people I meet. I have not yet killed anyone. No harm is done.


BTW, you missed '3'

 

[saizai]

11, 21, 31, 41 all involve fantasy. Fantasy hurts no-one.

I already answered 4, 7, and 9.

Sorry, that was shorthand for 11,21,31,41;14,24,34,... etc

BTW, you missed '3'

Doh!


I guess to round things out I should add "extreme s&m fantasy enactment". E.g. someone asks you to arrange for them to be kidnapped, raped, and tortured (including significant bodily harm) at some time in the future when it will be a complete surprise. Is getting some local thugs to do so Bad?

(Not really about adultery any more, but enh.)

The original point of this post was mostly to investigate the "Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, that's the same as adultery" thing.

 

[clarsct]

Sorry, that was shorthand for 11,21,31,41;14,24,34,... etc

Doh!


I guess to round things out I should add "extreme s&m fantasy enactment". E.g. someone asks you to arrange for them to be kidnapped, raped, and tortured (including significant bodily harm) at some time in the future when it will be a complete surprise. Is getting some local thugs to do so Bad?

(Not really about adultery any more, but enh.)

The original point of this post was mostly to investigate the "Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, that's the same as adultery" thing.

Christ, how do you look upon a woman WITHOUT lust. For ◊◊◊◊'s sake, we're human and we're animals. Trust me, ladies, guys are going to look upon you with lust, no matter WHAT you look like..it takes all kinds, et cetera, ad nauseum. We're genetically hardwired to breed. Evolution is funny that way.

As for BDSM(Bondage, Dominance, and SadoMasochism), I'm not sure I would hire thugs....it'd take away from the fun....


Thing is that she consented before the episode. She should, if she were even halfway intelligent, have specified a code word or signal so that the other party would know when she in trouble/has had too much.
Bodily harm is something that is a given in S&M games. Even fairly sever bodily harm, in some cases. Takes trust. Takes a top who isn't a complete frickin moron. In other words, if you like being hurt, you better learn to a) be very, very cautious, and b) be a good judge of people.

But informed consent is informed consent, amongst adults. If a woman approached me out of the blue with this, I would say no, unconditionally. If it was a partner I trusted, knew and had been playing with a long time, and I knew what she liked/wanted..I would consider it. But either way, she specified what she wanted done, and in such fantasies details become extremely important. People don't come up with this stuff overnight...this is something she's fantasized about for a LONG time. If she's ready to have someone act it out on her, then you can bet she's given it a lot of thought. She knows what she's doing.

Of course, you're also treading a line with mental illness, here. Which is why if it a stranger, it is a bad idea. Well, one of the reasons. I mean, bipolar mood swings are the least of things that could go wrong.

I would concede it may be immoral to do with a stranger, but perfectly ok to do with someone you know and trust, and you know that they trust you.

I know this is long, but I wanted to give a complete answer.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The original point of this post was mostly to investigate the "Jesus said if you look at a woman with lust, that's the same as adultery" thing.

I suppose it is, but then I don't find adultery to be immoral .

Actually, my position can be summed up into this: Anything that consenting adults do in private without hurting anybody, themselves included, is OK.

This doesn't exclude normal S&M, since I assume that paritipants find the pain pleasant, and are not hurt as such. More extreme things that do include actual bodily harm can be problematic, I don't necessarily disapprove of people participating if that is their pleasure, but I think others should stay away.

Hans

 

[ponderingturtle]

I initially voted immoral, but now I an reconsidering. Knowingly assisting a breach of trust is immoral. It's like being an accomplice to murder. You didn't do the murder, but you condone/assisted/hid it. On the other hand, if they are coming on to me, then the relationship has deeper problems. I would say that knowingly seducing such a person is wrong, but for them to seduce you, then they are wrong, but you're in the clear.

So you can know, but if you don't iniate it you are not culpable for the breach of trust you where involved in?

On a related note doing what of these with out your partners knowledge is cheating

Masterbating
Sex with a prostitute
Oral Sex

Why?

My take is that when someone other than you and your partner involved it can be cheating if they are not aware of it in some fashion.

 

[saizai]

Christ, how do you look upon a woman WITHOUT lust.

Easy: turn gay.

P.S. Sounds like someone's a scener.

 

[Corpse Cruncher]

9 and 7 are rape.

 

[saizai]

So you can know, but if you don't iniate it you are not culpable for the breach of trust you where involved in?

On a related note doing what of these with out your partners knowledge is cheating

Masterbating
Sex with a prostitute
Oral Sex

Why?

My take is that when someone other than you and your partner involved it can be cheating if they are not aware of it in some fashion.

Are they poly? If yes, then presumably they already told you what the answer is (and if not then you're both naive or idiots).

If not, then probably we're talking about general assumption of fidelity in relationships... which seems to be basically "thou shalt not have an romantic or sexual relationship with anyone else".

P.S. IMO being involved in something unethical is unethical; initiation is, as it were, a 'rider'. Lots of situations don't have anyone in particular 'initiating' as such, just not actually backing out or not participating in the minor-escalation cycle.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Are they poly? If yes, then presumably they already told you what the answer is (and if not then you're both naive or idiots).

If not, then probably we're talking about general assumption of fidelity in relationships... which seems to be basically "thou shalt not have an romantic or sexual relationship with anyone else".

Yes but finding people who rationalized that X is not really cheating. Of course it is not cheating if permission was given.

P.S. IMO being involved in something unethical is unethical; initiation is, as it were, a 'rider'. Lots of situations don't have anyone in particular 'initiating' as such, just not actually backing out or not participating in the minor-escalation cycle.

So that the person would be immoral and it would be wrong then. This seems to not fit with what you where saying before that it was ok as long as you where not the active party.

 

[saizai]

So that the person would be immoral and it would be wrong then. This seems to not fit with what you where saying before that it was ok as long as you where not the active party.

That wasn't me. Check your quotes.

 

[saizai]

WOTM's perspective: