Lucid Dreaming

[Placebo]

Hi Shera,

Thanks for the research - it seems pretty good
That's all I was really asking for. Studied, experimented and replicated.
Now I'm happy to leave the subject of it's existence alone

I simply found it annoying that all other unusual subjects on this site are roasted for lack of evidence, while everyone seemed happy to label lucid dreaming as fact under the umbrella of anecdotal experiences.

However in reply to this:

From Shera
I have! That is news to me! lol.
Seriously, I don't take anything on trust. If I implied otherwise, please show me the quote.

I understand that you have some views that are different from the mainstream skeptics on this site. I did not imply that ALL your views are taken on trust.

And here is my quote from you, as answer:

From Shera
Add:

"Some longstanding skeptical members of the JREF have also said they have experienced lucid dreaming and I trust their critical thinking skills."

Then I'll agree that you summarized my theory as to why lucid dreaming has not been challenged in this thread.

Important bit = 'I trust their critical thinking skills'. I read in this that you also took it on trust. Perhaps I misread and you were only stating why you feel others have not challenged it?

BillyJoe:

Thanks, I often make mistakes with the authors of quotes
I'll try to be more careful.

As you noted, personal anecdotal experiences are dangerous even for ourselves. Randi (eg) often points out how little we can trust our own senses, leaving it very uneasy terrain.

For a laugh, here's my poem that I wrote in my dream.
I picked up an A3 paper from a girl in my dream, found a clean spot, looked away, decided to do it with the word 'coffee' p) and looked back at the paper.
The paper was beautifully emblazoned with 3D fruit and leaf shining on the right side of it.
And the poem read as follows:

My life is turning into a waste
And an earmark for presidents of bad taste
Then in the canteen today, they serve ..(forget) ..
... Rhyming couplets of bad sounding food and coffee...

Told you it was silly
They have a canteen at my work place, which is where that came from.

 

[Kaylee]

Important bit = 'I trust their critical thinking skills'. I read in this that you also took it on trust. Perhaps I misread

Yes.

and you were only stating why you feel others have not challenged it?

Yes. If you reread my post, and see what parts are in quotes and what parts aren't, you will see that's what I was saying.

Posted originally by Placebo
I simply found it annoying that all other unusual subjects on this site are roasted for lack of evidence, while everyone seemed happy to label lucid dreaming as fact under the umbrella of anecdotal experiences.

And because of my personal experience, I didn't think that as many as 50% of the population had never had lucid dreams and I didn't know that scientists had ever doubted lucid dreaming. So… I learned a lot from this thread.

'Nother day at JREF….

Shera

 

[Beth]

Re: Re: Re: Qualia in Lucid Dreams

Shera,

Just an interesting point....

Some critics of evolution cite sleep as something that cannot be
explained by evolution - because it reduces survival potential.

However, if you consider that initially all life was unconscious (eg single cells are not conscious), evolution could be considered the method by which total 24 hour unconciousness has been gradually reduced to an average of 7 hours (in the case of humans). So the process of evolution has, in fact, increased our survival potential just as we would expect.

BJ

This doesn't make sense to me. There is a difference between being conscious, that is awake and aware of one's surroundings and being conscious in the sense of being aware of oneself. Other animals sleep. Other animals (mammals anyway) have dreams.

The question of why animals sleep is a good one and I'm not aware of any conclusive answers. However, not all animals dream and I don't know of any animals, other than humans, which could be said to have lucid dreams - although how you would tell if a dog was having a lucid dream I don't know. But they definitely sleep and dream.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I simply found it annoying that all other unusual subjects on this site are roasted for lack of evidence, while everyone seemed happy to label lucid dreaming as fact under the umbrella of anecdotal experiences.

The requirement of "physical" evidence is only for fields that state paranormal claims. Whats the paranormal thing about a dream?

 

[Placebo]

The requirement of "physical" evidence is only for fields that state paranormal claims. Whats the paranormal thing about a dream?

Paranormal claims are claims that cannot be explained in terms of our modern understanding of science.
Sleep and dreams are areas that science does not properly understand at present, including how our mind is able to stay conscious in an unconscious state.

Beyond scientific explanation, and thus paranormal when looking at it. Laberge should apply for the mil

Assuming it has been proven, it would have been 'paranormal' prior to that evidence.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong (no doubt you would have anyway )

 

[DuckTapeFileMan]

knowledge that one is really asleep and that one is in a dream is no different from the knowledge of gravity and other things which occure when you are awake. When you dream you usually experience a world with gravity, you don't think that is unusual.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Paranormal claims are claims that cannot be explained in terms of our modern understanding of science.
Sleep and dreams are areas that science does not properly understand at present, including how our mind is able to stay conscious in an unconscious state.

Beyond scientific explanation, and thus paranormal when looking at it. Laberge should apply for the mil

Assuming it has been proven, it would have been 'paranormal' prior to that evidence.

PS: Correct me if I'm wrong (no doubt you would have anyway )

"paranormal" has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: seemingly outside normal sensory channels
Synonym: extrasensory

Meaning #2: not in accordance with scientific laws
Antonym: normal (meaning #2)

Would you say that Lucid Dreams (or just normal dreams) are extrasensorial or anormal enough to be considered outside scientific laws? If the answer is "no" there you are, you are not equating them to PSI or supernatural phenomena that requires strong facts instead of recalling subjective experiences.

 

[jambo372]

I've had a few weird dreams. I usually dream of death. Either I die or murder someone.

In one dream I had I hung somebody upside down from a bridge and spun their body around until they started screaming and vomiting. Then I cut the rope and they fell into the water below and drowned.

Supposedly, these dreams can be good if you like the person who dies - if someone dies in a dream, a year is added onto their life in reality.

 

[Placebo]

"paranormal" has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: seemingly outside normal sensory channels
Synonym: extrasensory

Meaning #2: not in accordance with scientific laws
Antonym: normal (meaning #2)

Would you say that Lucid Dreams (or just normal dreams) are extrasensorial or anormal enough to be considered outside scientific laws? If the answer is "no" there you are, you are not equating them to PSI or supernatural phenomena that requires strong facts instead of recalling subjective experiences.

Prior to research, it was in fact considered to be outside of scientific laws. We now know better, but it demonstrates my point. To use the same article Shera linked:

From the article Lucid Dreaming: Awake in Your Sleep? - Published in Skeptical Inquirer 1991, 15, 362-370
Lucid dreams used to be a topic within psychical research and parapsychology. Perhaps their incomprehensibility made them good candidates for being thought paranormal
[...]
Lucidity has also become something of a New Age fad
[...]
This implied that there could be consciousness during sleep, a claim many psychologists denied for more than 50 years
[...]
He too succeeded, but resistance to the idea was very strong

Oh and Jambo, I doubt many of us are interested in superstitions about dreaming, unless you think them funny. With your track record, I assume you're serious.

 

[BillyJoe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Qualia in Lucid Dreams

Beth,

This doesn't make sense to me. There is a difference between being conscious, that is awake and aware of one's surroundings and being conscious in the sense of being aware of oneself. Other animals sleep. Other animals (mammals anyway) have dreams.

I was speaking broadly about consciousness. I was not meaning to distinguish between humans and other animals but merely commenting about the process of evolution across the board. And I didn't mention self-consciousness for no other reason that it was not pertinent to my point which I wished to state as simply as possible. But the process would look like this:

unconsciousness => consciousness => self-consciousness

Some forms of life have not progressed beyond the unconsciousness stage because there was no pressure to evolve consciousness. Other forms of life have progressed all the way to self-consciousness because the environment in which they found themselves was a very competitive one and self-consciousness was a survival advantage.

But maybe I missed the point you were trying to make.

BillyJoe

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Prior to research, it was in fact considered to be outside of scientific laws. We now know better, but it demonstrates my point.

I see. Well, it is the same for some people, who consider Yoga, or meditation, to be "paranormal" or "woo", when in fact are just two very old disciplines, for the mind and body.

What you say, helps me to understand a bit better why the (incredible) persistence of some believers in sustaining whatever they believe, against every evidence we have.

When Im having a lucid dream I do not have doubts. I Cant, when I wake up in the morning I still cant doubt, no amount of skepticism from any scientist would make me doubt.

If someone has seen what he/she believe is a "ghost", no power of rationality will convince him/her on the contrary. What they need is a strong conceptual framework in which "ghosts" are not possible, to begin to understand.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I find lucid dreaming quite fascinating

What I find amusing, is that nobody has questioned the evidence for it. We have one isolated scientist (Laberge) and his word, and a bunch of anecdotal experiences.
Is that it? Why is everyone accepting it so readily?

We do now have proof of lucid dreaming -- that's why it's now accepted. Someone who could lucid dream at will was hooked up to various instruments which registered eye movements. He could communicate to the outside world by the movements of his eyes once he started to lucid dream. It's the only part of ones body which is not paralysed whilst asleep.

 

[Interesting Ian]

There have been some fairly well conducted experiments involving lucid dreamers, specifically where certain acts (twitch of a finger, or moving the eyes one way or another) are performed upon prior agreement when lucidity is achieved. However, I don't have links to any of them at the moment.

I also know some attempt has been made to debunk this research, claiming that the acts are unconscious acts, remembered and performed without lucidity. Who knows?

We know. We know that people lucid dream and they can communicate by moving their eyes. If it was unconscious their "communication" would be gobbledegook.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Not sure I follow your question here... you mean, do I ponder the seeming reality of things within the dream?

No, never, really. What I do find mind-boggling at times is the ability to see all sided of an object within the dream simultaneously. Not something we normally do in real life, but something fairly easy to achieve once I've entered lucid dreams.

People can do this in OBE states during NDEs. But this is what one would expect. In the afterlife obviously we will be able to see in all directions at once.

 

[Placebo]

I see. Well, it is the same for some people, who consider Yoga, or meditation, to be "paranormal" or "woo", when in fact are just two very old disciplines, for the mind and body.

What you say, helps me to understand a bit better why the (incredible) persistence of some believers in sustaining whatever they believe, against every evidence we have.

When Im having a lucid dream I do not have doubts. I Cant, when I wake up in the morning I still cant doubt, no amount of skepticism from any scientist would make me doubt.

If someone has seen what he/she believe is a "ghost", no power of rationality will convince him/her on the contrary. What they need is a strong conceptual framework in which "ghosts" are not possible, to begin to understand.

I'm glad to have helped break down the cultural misunderstandings then
Indeed, personal anecdotes may be useless to another skeptic, but to the woo who experienced it, it's fact.
Despite the fact that it often is a delusion, misunderstanding, etc

Eg. I'm thinking of Randi's commentary on the ghostly photos in Egypt. Poor sucker.

Interesting Ian: Yep, we've covered the fact of the latest evidence. We were kind of delving into the history prior to that evidence though, and the fact that the evidence took a while to be noted in this thread.

Contemplate how things were PRIOR to this evidence
No evidence, skeptics roast you for the suggestion of it. And yet it's real.
Personal anecdotes can definitely be worth noting, but need some care.

 

[Placebo]

People can do this in OBE states during NDEs. But this is what one would expect. In the afterlife obviously we will be able to see in all directions at once.

You speak of OBEs as though they are confirmed fact.
If I may ask, do you believe in OBEs and what are your personal reasons?

[EDIT]
Unless I misunderstand, and you refer to the hallucination thereof?

 

[Interesting Ian]

Check out the 3 additional articles footnoted in the wiki article mid-page also -- this one in particular.

Susan Blackmore says:

This implied that there could be consciousness during sleep, a claim many psychologists denied for more than 50 years.

It seems clearly the case that I have been misusing the word consciousness all my life. I understand it as being aware . . having thoughts, feelings, qualia etc. That which distinguishes oneself from being unconscious or being dead (if you don't believe in life after death).

But with normal dreams you are not conscious, but with dreams you are conscious?? Er . .the only distinction between them is that in the latter you realise you are dreaming! But I can't believe my understanding of the word "consciousness" can be so much in error that the word actually means the realisation that you are not dreaming! But yet all the skeptics on here agree with Susan Blackmore about the definition of the word.

Anyone help me out here?

 

[Placebo]

conscious. adj.
Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts

In a lucid dream, you know who you are, where you are, what you ate last night, what you want to do in the lucid dream, etc.
Note though, that there can be different levels of consciousness in a lucid dream. One can have trouble remembering certain things - something like feeling drugged or having just woken.

 

[Interesting Ian]

You speak of OBEs as though they are confirmed fact.
If I may ask, do you believe in OBEs and what are your personal reasons?

[EDIT]
Unless I misunderstand, and you refer to the hallucination thereof?

An OBE is an OBE (out of body experience). Of course they occur. I do not know whether they are hallucinations. Voluntary induced OBEs tend to be rather insipid compared to involuntary ones -- especially those during NDEs. The evidence suggests that one's mind shapes and influences, and indeed maybe even creates (i.e be a hallucinatory experience) the environment one perceives in such voluntary induced OBEs. The information one gets from their environment is better than chance, but on the whole no better than one gets via normal ESP.

That's the voluntary induced ones. Those during NDEs, which are of a much more realistic nature, may invoke a different response when it comes to to the question of whether they are wholly hallucinatiory or not. The anecdotal evidence pretty well overwhelmingly suggests they are not wholly hallucinatory (although the vision experienced is not quite like that of normal sight).

So basically you're asking a very involved question which would take us off the subject matter of this thread.

 

[Z]

People can do this in OBE states during NDEs. But this is what one would expect. In the afterlife obviously we will be able to see in all directions at once.

While that is sensibly true (without a physical body, why would we have the restriction of 180 degree vision?), it is also consistant with a dream-state - that is, that so-called OBE's and NDE's are merely dreams.

Frankly, omni-vision is proof neither way - all it proves is whatever IS going on is not tied to the physical sensory organs at all. Whether dream or spirit remains to be proven/disproven.