Logical? Deism.

[Franko]

No. All citizens must be equal under the law. The threat of punishment must naturally apply even to me (although I do not need it).

Some animals are more equal then others CWL?

some people (as I have explainted to you at least 100 times before) need punishment as a deterrent.

Only some people? Which people are affected by rewards and punishments (Determinism) and which ones are immune? What is your empirical evidence for this claim?

Are you claiming that the majority of prison inmates are atheists? If so, please provide the statistics to back your claim up.

Only a person who does not believe there will be consequences for his actions behaves as if there will not be consequences for his actions. A person only believes that there will be no consequences for his actions if he doesn’t believe in a higher power responsible for the creation and existence of the Universe (an A-Theist).

This all started out by you claiming that any person who believes in eternal damnation would never commit a crime.

That is True, a person who holds a solemn religious belief that action X is immoral and against the Will of God will not commit action X. Are you suggesting otherwise? By what logic?

You then went on to claim that the lack of such a belief automatically leads to immoral beahviour. My only contention is and has been that you are wrong in saying this.

It is rather obvious to me (and over 90% of the general population) that a person who does not believe there will be consequences for his actions will behave EXACTLY as if he does not believe there will be consequences for his actions. The fact that you are a LAWYER, tells me that deep down you must also know this.

… so why do you call yourself A-Theist deceitful, hypocrite?

Why not just concede to Agnosticism CWL? Aren’t you tired of being exposed as moronic religious fanatic day after day in this forum?

When did I challenge your theory of "maximum perceived benefit"? Please provide quotes and/or links to any post where I have done so.

Of course you can't. Because it just isn't so.

CWL you can pretend that you have been claiming REWARDS and PUNISHMENT are necessary to make men moral all along, but unfortunately for you other people have been following along in our discussion.

Your original contention was that A-Theists, who DO NOT believe in consequences for their actions will behave just as morally (if not more morally) then those who do believe in consequences. This is an utterly absurd claim to make, and you looked like a retard every time you claimed it, but at least you seem to be backing off from it now. Unfortunately you are unable to be a Man, and simply concede defeat graciously and with some dignity.

I thought you'd like the idea of "intrinsic morality". Of course I also claim that we are free to act upon such instinctive impulses or not to. Therefore I also believe it's fair that we suffer the consequences of our actions.

It sounds like you are saying that you are “free” to be insane?

Did I ever deny that you were “free” to jump from the roof of a tall building CWL? I am just wondering why if it really is an option for you … you have never acted upon it???

Yes, there is a certain nature of things which can be described as "laws" of physics. How else would things be?

Certain things?

What things don’t TLOP “describe”? Can you give us an example?

You are made of chemicals CWL! Is there something more to you than chemicals??? If so, then what?

DO chemicals have “free will” CWL?

I constitute part of this Universe. My ability to influence the Universe through input (to an extremely minute extent but nevertheless) is not "disobeying the laws of physics" - it is part of the laws of physics as is any other possible phenomenon.

So you are part of TLOP? It sounds like YOU are claiming that TLOP is conscious? can that be CWL? How can TLOP be “conscious”??? What is your evidence for this claim?

No I don't because I have never said it. Please feel free to provide a quote and/or link to any specific post where I have.

So then I take you are conceding my point regarding MPB? You are acknowledging that you are simply a deterministic algorithm, and that you have no “free will”?

Conscious entities only react to stimuli. All stimuli are either positive (a reward) or negative (a punishment)

CWL:
I agree. That is no proof for any ultimate consequences however, nor that the lack of belief in such consequences leads to immorality.

Look Nitwit … either Rewards and punishment affect behavior … or they do not. If you don’t believe that there are ANY consequences after you die, then you will behave EXACTLY AS IF THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES AFTER YOU DIE! That isn’t going to make you a more moral person CWL, it is going to make you a LESS moral person, a lot less moral, and don’t think that no one is going to notice either.

You are still missing my main point however: 'taint no proof of no ultimate consequences (or that the lack-o-belief in such consequences leads to immorality).

Sure there is. There are literally hundreds of experiments which ALL VERIFY that when a person doesn’t believe there is any reward or punishment for a given action (or series of actions) they will behave exactly as if that is what they believe.

This is common sense reasoning. Honestly, I can’t believe any serious person would actually be disagreeing with it. Only someone who was insane, or a severely deluded religious fanatic could argue with such logic and such a mountain of evidence as what exist for Determinism.

 

[Tricky]

I just want to further elaborate on what a couple of religious nitwits you and your pal Tricky are …

Go ahead. Make your little straw man.

Let’s say that I am digging a hole in my back yard, and I find some gold in the process.

I found a reward! There is nothing immoral with that, correct?

Nothing immoral about finding it. Of course, if there were clues as to who it belonged, it would be extremely moral for you to try to find the person.

Now you are claiming that punishment isn’t necessary to make men honest and moral.

No one here has claimed that but you, Franko. Punishment is sometimes necessary, but supernatural punisment is completely toothless, as the offender has no evidence that he/she will ever be punished. I have no fear of hell or the abyss, because they are imaginary, however, prison is real. However, for many people, it is not necessary to threaten them at all. They have highly developed empathy, and cannot do something that would cause harm to another because they can understand how it would feel.

You are familiar with the concept of empathy, no?

So if there is no punishment associated with “stealing” money from a bank, how is me walking into a bank and “stealing” money any different then me finding money in my back yard?

If there is no way of finding who the money in your back yard belongs to, then you can do nothing else but keep it. Of course, if you money in bags with a bank's name on it, you would be morally obliged to notify the police, otherwise you may be an accessory to a robbery by not reporting it. Also, if you have empathy, you do not want people to lose their hard-earned money. I truly feel sorry for you if the only reason you are not a criminal is fear of punishment. Don't you care about others at all?

I mean … if there are no negative consequences associated with taking something that isn’t yours, then in what way is that action immoral?

To people with empathy, the negative consequences are that you would feel terrible. You put yourself in the position of the person(s) being stolen from, and you realize you would hate such a person who stole from you. Thus, you would hate yourself. That is why, for many people, no external punishment is necessary to keep them in line. They have their own internal reward and punishment.

I hope you never lose belief in religion Franko, or you would be busting safes the next day. You appear to be one of the people for whom the penal system was designed.

 

[Franko]

A-Theist Trickster:

Punishment is sometimes necessary, but supernatural punisment is completely toothless, as the offender has no evidence that he/she will ever be punished.

AToms obey TLOP.
You are made of AToms.
You obey TLOP.

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR

No evidence? Keep pretending A-Theist ...

 

[CWL]

Franko,

Right now I have more imporant matters to attend to than making you look like a dofus so I will leave the baton to Tricky for a while. I am certain he will do a fine job at demolishing your little strawmen as always.

Notwithstanding the following deserves a comment:

Your original contention was that A-Theists, who DO NOT believe in consequences for their actions will behave just as morally (if not more morally) then those who do believe in consequences. This is an utterly absurd claim to make, and you looked like a retard every time you claimed it, but at least you seem to be backing off from it now. Unfortunately you are unable to be a Man, and simply concede defeat graciously and with some dignity.

As usual you are grossly misrepresenting my contentions. I have not claimed the above, and you know it full well.

I have claimed and do claim that atheists, who do not believe in ultimate consequences (i.e. consequences for the individual after death) for their actions will behave just as morally as those who do believe in such consequences.

Spot the subtle but important difference?

Why is it so hard for you to be honest in a debate Franko? Puberty hormones?

 

[Franko]

CWL:

Right now I have more imporant matters to attend to ...

Taking flight chicken-◊◊◊◊?

Why aren't I surprised?

Like I said ... you are no Man.


Certain things?

What things don’t TLOP “describe”? Can you give us an example?

You are made of chemicals CWL! Is there something more to you than chemicals??? If so, then what?

DO chemicals have “free will” CWL?

 

[Tricky]

...I will leave the baton to Tricky for a while. I am certain he will do a fine job at demolishing your little strawmen as always.

It's pretty much done now. The Franko character has reset.

 

[CWL]

Taking flight chicken-◊◊◊◊?

Why aren't I surprised?

Like I said ... you are no Man.

Believe it or not, unlike you, I have a life outside of this forum.

And yes, I am a Man. Don't be jealous, you will be too in a few years.

Certain things?

What things don’t TLOP “describe”? Can you give us an example?

What are you talking about?!? I said there is a "certain nature of things".

Are you misrepresenting my statements on purpose or are you actually illiterate?

You are made of chemicals CWL! Is there something more to you than chemicals??? If so, then what?

DO chemicals have “free will” CWL?

No but "I" do. That "I" may be the result of chemicals does not contradict this. You have yet to provide evidence to the contrary. Your TLOP syllogism doesn't do the trick as "I" and my "free will" are naturally both results of TLOP.

Your reasoning indicates that you have invented a new syllogism:

CHEMICALS do not have FREE WILL
CWL is made of CHEMICALS
CWL does not have FREE WILL

Fallacy of composition mean anything to you?

Please try again (when you have come up with new material).

 

[CWL]

It's pretty much done now. The Franko character has reset.

Like you said, hours of entertainment. However, all good things must come to an end. Oh well, I might play again tomorrow. It's fun, but it really is too bad that the game only comes with a beginner level.

 

[Franko]

CWLoser:

Believe it or not, unlike you, I have a life outside of this forum.

Yes, yes, I know all about your meaningless existence A-Theist. I agree you should run along and not waste another valuable second of it, because before you know it you will have ceased to exist.

CWL:
Yes, there is a certain nature of things which can be described as "laws" of physics. How else would things be?

Franko:
Certain things?
What things don’t TLOP “describe”? Can you give us an example?
You are made of chemicals CWL! Is there something more to you than chemicals??? If so, then what?
DO chemicals have “free will” CWL?

CWL:
What are you talking about?!? I said there is a "certain nature of things".

More hiding and obfuscation evil A-Theist? Why aren’t I surprised?

So you have NO EVIDENCE for your statement that “certain things” are NOT described by The laws of Physics?

An A-Theists with no evidence to support his absurd religious dogma??? Why aren’t I surprised?

Franko:
You are made of chemicals CWL! Is there something more to you than chemicals??? If so, then what?

DO chemicals have “free will” CWL?

CWL:
No but "I" do.

How can YOU have “free will”, if you are nothing more than chemicals A-Theist?

That doesn’t make any sense? Is there something you aren’t telling us?

How are you greater than the sum of your parts, Materialist?

That "I" may be the result of chemicals does not contradict this.

yes it does.

You have yet to provide evidence to the contrary.

So you are asking me to prove that your “free willy God” doesn’t exist?

How about if you prove the Christian God doesn’t exist first?

Your TLOP syllogism doesn't do the trick as "I" and my "free will" are naturally both results of TLOP.

So you are again making the claim that TLOP is “conscious”??? That’s twice you have said this in one day? Is anything the matter CWL?

Your reasoning indicates that you have invented a new syllogism:

CHEMICALS do not have FREE WILL
CWL is made of CHEMICALS
CWL does not have FREE WILL

Hey that is very good! But keep in mind, I don’t exist, I’m just a figment of your imagination.

Fallacy of composition mean anything to you?

You mean like claiming that flipped coins always land “TAILS” up??

Please try again (when you have come up with new material).

You called me Bee-atch.

 

[CWL]

CWLoser:

Yes, yes, I know all about your meaningless existence A-Theist. I agree you should run along and not waste another valuable second of it, because before you know it you will have ceased to exist.

No I won't. If I cease to exist, I won't know anything.

More hiding and obfuscation evil A-Theist? Why aren’t I surprised?

No I am simply pointing out that you are not reading my posts properly. The Universe exists. It does so in a certain way = "there is a certain nature of things".

How does your question "Certain things?" relate to that?

So you have NO EVIDENCE for your statement that “certain things” are NOT described by The laws of Physics?

An A-Theists with no evidence to support his absurd religious dogma??? Why aren’t I surprised?

I have made no such statement. I am not keen on providing evidence for your little strawmen.

How can YOU have “free will”, if you are nothing more than chemicals A-Theist?

That doesn’t make any sense? Is there something you aren’t telling us?

How are you greater than the sum of your parts, Materialist?

I am conscious. Yet, the chemicals I am made of are not.

Is it really so inconceivable to you that the sum can be greater than the parts? Why do you think there is a logical mistake called "fallacy of composition" in the first place?

yes it does.

No it doesn't.

Hey - I like this game.

So you are asking me to prove that your “free willy God” doesn’t exist?

How about if you prove the Christian God doesn’t exist first?

Ah. Nice one Franko. Although not entirely comparable. The input that human beings produce and the effect thereof is observable. We all perceive our "free will" on a daily basis. That shifts the burden of proof back to you my friend.

If you would care to provide evidence of the Christian God, I will gladly assume the burden of proof to disprove its existence.

So you are again making the claim that TLOP is “conscious”??? That’s twice you have said this in one day? Is anything the matter CWL?

No. TLOP describes the Universe (what is). There are conscious beings in the Universe. Consciousness is thus part of the Universe. Not the same as saying "TLOP is conscious" at all.

Hey that is very good! But keep in mind, I don’t exist, I’m just a figment of your imagination.

Time to resort to solipsism again Franko? Are you really that cornered?

You mean like claiming that flipped coins always land “TAILS” up??

No, like claiming that...

CHEMICALS do not have FREE WILL
CWL is made of CHEMICALS
CWL does not have FREE WILL

... is a clear fallacy of composition.

You called me Bee-atch.

Yes, in fact I did. But I am hogging the game now. Time to let someone else enjoy a bit of BOBS for a while. See you around, your Holiness.

 

[Franko]

CWLoser:

No I won't. If I cease to exist, I won't know anything.

Yes, but since you are going to cease to exist regardless, then why are you here punishing yourself by exposer to radically different worldviews from your own dogmatic beliefs?

How does your question "Certain things?" relate to that?

Are there rules (LAWS) which describe the behavior and operation of the Universe CWL, or are some parts just magical? It is a very simple question. And I know why you persist in refusing to address it.

I am conscious. Yet, the chemicals I am made of are not.

How do you know that?

Without defining precisely what you mean by “conscious” your statement is meaningless.

Is it really so inconceivable to you that the sum can be greater than the parts? Why do you think there is a logical mistake called "fallacy of composition" in the first place?

Because 2 + 2 = 4, not 2 + 2 = 7 CWL!

Why is it that I can spot the fallacy in your syllogisms, but you have so much trouble clearly pointing out the flaw in mine? The only reason you are claiming that there is a flaw, is because YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE FOR YOUR BELIEF IN MAGIC “FREE WILL” POWERS.

Yet conveniently you cannot indicate what the flaw is. It’s kind of like you claiming that 2 + 2 does not equal 4, but then being unable to explain why 2 + 2 does not equal 4.

But 2 + 2 does equal 4 CWL, you are just retarded.

We all perceive our "free will" on a daily basis. That shifts the burden of proof back to you my friend.

I see the color “red” on a daily basis CWL, but that doesn’t change the reality that what I am actually perceiving is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light. Your “experiences” don’t amount to any more “evidence” for your “god” then a Christians ‘experiences” amount to “evidence” for his “god”.

Once again you have nothing to base your beliefs on but an absurd double standard.

No. TLOP describes the Universe (what is). There are conscious beings in the Universe. Consciousness is thus part of the Universe. Not the same as saying "TLOP is conscious" at all.

Then how can TLOP control you is it isn’t conscious?

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

You didn’t get to choose your parents CWL, you didn’t get to choose when or where you were born. You didn’t get to choose your height, or your hair color, or whether or not you were born in a wheelchair. What is your specific evidence that you have ever chosen ANYTHING?

You have no evidence because you have never made ANY choices!

Time to resort to solipsism again Franko? Are you really that cornered?

If you imagine that I am … is that what you are imagining?

If it was then you would just provide your evidence for “free will” and shut me up.

No, like claiming that...

CHEMICALS do not have FREE WILL
CWL is made of CHEMICALS
CWL does not have FREE WILL

... is a clear fallacy of composition.

Then explain EXACTLY and PRECISELY what the fallacy is? Even the Brette was going on the other day that you nitwits weren’t making any sense with that line of argument. It is obfuscation CWL and you know it.

Explain the fallacy. What is your evidence for “free will” A-Theist?

 

[Tricky]

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

Reset.
Hey! Two posts! Pretty good, CWL.

 

[Franko]

Hey! Two posts! Pretty good, CWL.

More evidence for your "free will" Religious Fanatic?

So why does no evidence for "god" mean No God, but no evidence for "free will" means you definitely have magical "free will" powers?

That is a blatent and obvious contradiction A-Theist. You don't seem very eager or able to refute it?

You think no one is noticing? Make some more fluff post for me. Demonstrate you religious fanaticism a little more for us.

 

[wraith]

I am conscious. Yet, the chemicals I am made of are not.

Watch it....
You dont believe in a Soul remember

Is it really so inconceivable to you that the sum can be greater than the parts? Why do you think there is a logical mistake called "fallacy of composition" in the first place?

ahhh the composition fallacy doesnt violate math

No, like claiming that...

CHEMICALS do not have FREE WILL
CWL is made of CHEMICALS
CWL does not have FREE WILL

Then present free-will!

 

[CWL]

Reset.
Hey! Two posts! Pretty good, CWL.

Thanks! I think I'm getting the hang of it. When do you suppose the sequel will be out? One really longs for new levels at this point in time...

 

[CWL]

Then present free-will!

You really don't get this burden of proof thingy do you?

OK. Let's change the syllogism a bit:

CHEMICALS are not CONSCIOUS
HUMANS are made of CHEMICALS
HUMANS are not CONSCIOUS

Now, does this, in your reasonable opinion, prove that humans are not conscious?

Why or why not?

 

[Checkmite]

Thanks! I think I'm getting the hang of it. When do you suppose the sequel will be out? One really longs for new levels at this point in time...

The new levels are shareware instead of freeware, so you'll have to pay a 20 dollar registry fee.

 

[wraith]

You really don't get this burden of proof thingy do you?

OK. Let's change the syllogism a bit:

CHEMICALS are not CONSCIOUS
HUMANS are made of CHEMICALS
HUMANS are not CONSCIOUS

Now, does this, in your reasonable opinion, prove that humans are not conscious?

Why or why not?

well I believe that consciousness creates matter sweety

 

[CWL]

The new levels are shareware instead of freeware, so you'll have to pay a 20 dollar registry fee.

I see. Does it come with a parental protection function as well (so you can switch off all the obscenities and abuse)?

 

[CWL]

well I believe that consciousness creates matter sweety

In that case why do you keep insisting that WE are made of ATOMS? Don't make no sense to me.

If you truly believe that matter/atoms are made by consciousness You should rightly be saying:

ATOMS obey CONCSIOUSNESS
YOU are CONSCIOUSNESS
ATOMS obey YOU