Logical? Deism.

[Tricky]

In this existence you are either moving closer to the Truth, or you are Not. The Logical Goddess is the embodiment of the Truth. She comprehends it far better than You do. She is trying to explain it to you, but I don’t think you are listening.

Actually, Franko, no one is listening more closely than I. In fact, I have tried to gather all the wisdom of The Goddess that I can glean in The List. I really want to know if I am getting it right. Could you please make your corrections? As you can see by the current list, I am not twisting your words at all. Surely The Goddess wants her word to be transcribed correctly, right?

 

[Franko]

Tricky, instead of wasting your time on that, why don't you explain what your evidence is for "choice"?

How can you prove that you make "choices" not based on your past experiences or memories? What is your evidence for 'free will"?

Theists may believe in God, but you believe in "free will", and I think there is a LOT more evidence for "god' then there is for 'free will" -- don't You???

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU OBEY TLOP!

(ergo no "free will")

and since:

TLOP (God) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.

I'd say that there was more than ample evidence for the existence of "god".

Now when are you going to produce ANY evidence for your ridiculous concept of "free will"?

no one is listening more closely than I.

Well why don’t you prove that then you fanatical little A-Theist! What exactly is the YOU making the “free willy” “choices” Trixy? I thought that according to A-Theism YOU are nothing more than your physical brain, and your physical brain is nothing more than a collection of Atoms (chemicals). Don’t those chemicals (Hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon, mostly) obey the same rules that all other chemicals obey? Do all chemical reactions indicate “free will”? Since we are talking about chemistry it seems that it would be a very easy thing to devise a test for your magic “free willy” powers.

Trixy are you aware that you’re hero Stephen Hawking believes that Determinism is true? His words of advice for A-Theists is I suggest you don’t think about it too much though. I wonder why the “great” scientist Hawking wouldn’t want A-Theists to think about the fact that they don’t have ‘free will” too much?

 

[Tricky]

Tricky, instead of wasting your time on that, why don't you explain what your evidence is for "choice"?

Are you telling me that learning about Logical Deism is a waste of time?

 

[MRC_Hans]

MPB = Maximum Perceived Benefit (conscious algorithm)

So you are claiming that Man (not confined by MPB) became the "superior" species on this planet by NOT choosing the most beneficial option??

MRC, I want to conduct an experiment. I want you to continue to choose the option that is NOT most beneficial, while I am going to continue to do the opposite. let's see which of us ends up as the fitter to survive ...

Franko, according to you, MPB finds the most benificial solution based on previous experience and invariably selects that. What an intelligent being can do is to infer what might be most beneficial based on future events, and act on that. Thats what I do when I decide whether or not to sell or buy stock, whether or not to buy a new house, which ob to choose, etc. etc. I have been doing this for some 35 years. Do you want to compare annual incomes?

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Ahhh, there’s that famous A-Theist Pessimism again!!! How unpredictable …

without your precious imaginary "free will" powers life just wouldn't be worth living according to you ... would it A-Theist?

I guess not. fortunately I have them.

What exactly is making the decision MRC? What is the “YOU” according to materialism? Explain it to me?

I thought that YOU were nothing more than your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of atoms (chemical elements), and don’t those chemical elements obey the exact same rules that ALL chemicals obey? Where is the YOU making the “choice”? Isn’t it all just laws of chemistry making all the “choices”???

Or are You claiming that your mind some how has the power to control the laws of chemistry? That seems like it would be easy to test for …



MPB = Maximum Perceived Benefit. The chemicals in your brain obey the deterministic laws of physics (TLOP). Those reactions generate a list of perceived options based on past experience, but the same process that generates the list ranks the options from best (most beneficial) to worst (least beneficial). You are crazy if you think you get a “choice”. Your consciousness ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, picks the best option off the list.

Laws of physics are not deterministic. Scientific proof exists of this. I have asked you to explain a simple, observable phenomenon like phosphorescense using determinism. So far I hear only crickets.

Unless you are insane.

But I don’t know MRC, are you claiming that people have “free will” to be insane? Did insane individuals “choose” to be insane according to you? I thought that no one was responsible for their actions according to atheists?

Again you attribute all sorts of strange claims to me that I haven't made. This is a really bad habit. But I do notice that you now say "atheist", I consider this progress. Personally, I'm agnostic.

Hans

 

[Tricky]

Trixy are you aware that you’re hero Stephen Hawking believes that Determinism is true? His words of advice for A-Theists is I suggest you don’t think about it too much though. I wonder why the “great” scientist Hawking wouldn’t want A-Theists to think about the fact that they don’t have ‘free will” too much?

I've never read Hawking, but a quick web search shows that Hawking's definition of determinism is much different from yours.

Stephen Hawking from his Public Lectures
Thus one still has a kind of determinism, but it is not the sort that Laplace envisaged. Instead of being able to predict the positions and speeds of particles, all we can predict is the wave function. This means that we can predict just half what we could, according to the classical 19th century view.

In fact, he goes so far as to say:

Stephen Hawking from his Public Lectures
Thus it seems that even God is bound by the Uncertainty Principle, and can not know both the position, and the speed, of a particle. So God does play dice with the universe. All the evidence points to him being an inveterate gambler, who throws the dice on every possible occasion.

Since you made your little "Appeal to Authority", do you accept Hawking's authority on this subject? You would be wise to check these things out before you go making such incredibly foolish claims.

 

[CWL]

Franko,

You may have missed this question so I take the liberty of posting it again. I have no trouble understanding your reasoning as to MBP when it comes to most decisions, and I see no real reason to dispute it either.

However, it does seem to me that not all choices fit into the theory.

Again, if I am asked to "pick a number between 1 and 100 and win a basket of fruit", why would my MBP tell me to prefer "87" over "34"?

 

[Franko]

Franko:
without your precious imaginary "free will" powers life just wouldn't be worth living according to you ... would it A-Theist?

MRC:
I guess not. fortunately I have them. [“free willy” powers]

What is your evidence for this claim? So far you have presented NONE, and it has been OVER a year now …

Franko:
What exactly is making the decision MRC? What is the “YOU” according to materialism? Explain it to me?

I thought that YOU were nothing more than your physical brain, and isn’t your physical brain just a collection of atoms (chemical elements), and don’t those chemical elements obey the exact same rules that ALL chemicals obey? Where is the YOU making the “choice”? Isn’t it all just laws of chemistry making all the “choices”???

Or are You claiming that your mind some how has the power to control the laws of chemistry? That seems like it would be easy to test for …

I notice that you keep avoiding this question MRC. Why is that? What specifically is the YOU, you keep referring to that is making the “choices”. YOU don’t make “choices”, because according to materialism there is no YOU. There is only “matter”.

 

[Franko]

CWL:
You may have missed this question so I take the liberty of posting it again. I have no trouble understanding your reasoning as to MBP when it comes to most decisions, and I see no real reason to dispute it either.

However, it does seem to me that not all choices fit into the theory.

Again, if I am asked to "pick a number between 1 and 100 and win a basket of fruit", why would my MBP tell me to prefer "87" over "34"?

Are you claiming that because you don’t know the specifics of the algorithm (chain of thought) that you use to select a “random” number that this is “evidence” that no such train of thought exists?

If you wanted to be very honest with me (if you did not call yourself A-Theist) I have no doubt that we could figure out exactly what criteria you are using to select a “random” number.

Why would you assume that just because you cannot perceive your precise chain of thought that you make this decision magically based on no train of thought? Maybe TLOP does your thinking for you on this one?

 

[CWL]

Are you claiming that because you don’t know the specifics of the algorithm (chain of thought) that you use to select a “random” number that this is “evidence” that no such train of thought exists?

I am trying to understand. Please do explain how according to your understanding MBP is at work in my example.

If you wanted to be very honest with me (if you did not call yourself A-Theist) I have no doubt that we could figure out exactly what criteria you are using to select a “random” number.

I do want to be honest and I do not call myself "A-Theist" (it is you who call me that, remember?). So please do give it a shot. What MBP criteria does one use in selecting a random number to win a basket of fruit?

Why would you assume that just because you cannot perceive your precise chain of thought that you make this decision magically based on no train of thought? Maybe TLOP does your thinking for you on this one?

Good question. It does not however answer my question which essentially is :why would I assume the opposite? I take it your assumptions did not just magically appear out of nowhere.

 

[Franko]

CWL:

I am trying to understand. Please do explain how according to your understanding MBP is at work in my example.

This would be incredibly time consuming to explain on this forum. Let me try and come up with a more clear-cut example that will illustrate the same point.

 

[Tricky]

The List

Thanks to Upchurch et. al. who have helped me compile The List. Here is the latest on that amazing new religion, Logical Deism. New entries have a red bullet.
*****************
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
  [*] The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate and logic.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
  The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real.
• Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodymics.
• A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information.
• Gravitons are made of time
  [*] Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections.
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
  [*] At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time.
  [*] The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP. They are more like the base programming language that the consciousnesses are written in.
  [*] Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
• A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.

Miscellaneous/The Lexicon

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
• No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
• choices are preordained outputs
• In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time.
  [*] Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical.

A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (Fanatical brainwashed A-Theists for over 30 years)

Since its been over a year, and you STILL haven’t presented ANY evidence for your religious beliefs, and since you post NOTHING but the same spam over and over again, what do you want me to say? If you have an actual argument for your religious beliefs – some evidence – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you, but your spam doesn’t really require anything other than me restating the obvious. I realize you don’t like your hypocrisy exposed Tricky, perhaps you should run along then? I honestly don’t know why you keep non-responding to all of my posts?

Actually, I do know why … It’s because you are a severely brainwashed religious fanatic with no evidence for his beliefs.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

When are you going to explain what the "YOU" is that is making the "decisions"??? I thought that according to Materialism there was no "YOU"? I thought that "YOU" were nothing more then a collection of Atoms?

Why do you believe that the atoms in your brain aren't controlled by the laws of Physics, Trixy? You never seem to want to explain this? What are you hiding A-Theist? Are you embarrassed to tell us what you believe?

 

[Upchurch]

Hey Trick,

Wasn't there a statement a while back that the LG obeys only gravity? It came up in another thread and I thought sure I read that somewhere, but I can't find it. Do you remember something along those lines or is it only fate and logic that the LG obeys?

 

[Franko]

Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic (objective rules) there would be no Fate.

 

[Tricky]

Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic (objective rules) there would be no Fate.

I wonder why NASA has never referred to astronauts as training in "zero logic" situations?

 

[Franko]

Trixy (retarded A-Theist)

When are you going to explain what the "YOU" is that is making the "decisions"??? I thought that according to Materialism there was no "YOU"? I thought that "YOU" were nothing more then a collection of Atoms?

Why do you believe that the atoms in your brain aren't controlled by the laws of Physics, Trixy? You never seem to want to explain this? What are you hiding A-Theist? Are you embarrassed to tell us what you believe?

Also what does the theory of Materialism (a.k.a. "The Religion of A-Theism") explain that the theory of Solipsism does not also explain, but with a more parsimonious answer? How can you claim that a less parsimonious but otherwise identical theory is more True? parsimony is a component of Logic -- wouldn't you agree?

 

[annadee]

Do you guys ever discuss things nicely, or do you just argue? Do you have fun arguing? I want to hear about some of the stuff on that list. Most of it looks bizarre, but some of it really get's me thinking. Maybe this universe is just one of many universes in the "omniverse". That would explain a lot of things that we can't seem to find the answers to.

But Franko, you shouldn't call people retarded. I have a little niece with Downs Syndrome, and it is a tragic and horrible disease. It is not something to make fun of.

If you guys want to talk like civilized human beings, I may join you. If you are just going to call each other names, then forget it.

 

[Tricky]

Do you guys ever discuss things nicely, or do you just argue? Do you have fun arguing? I want to hear about some of the stuff on that list. Most of it looks bizarre, but some of it really get's me thinking. Maybe this universe is just one of many universes in the "omniverse". That would explain a lot of things that we can't seem to find the answers to.

But Franko, you shouldn't call people retarded. I have a little niece with Downs Syndrome, and it is a tragic and horrible disease. It is not something to make fun of.

If you guys want to talk like civilized human beings, I may join you. If you are just going to call each other names, then forget it.

Anna, I must apologize. I made a resolution last New Year that I wasn't going to bait Franko, and I have fallen off of it. I admit that it is irritating when he tells me what I believe and I respond with sarcasm. However, in deference to you, I will attempt once again to keep my temper in control.

You mentioned The List. That list is a bunch of things Franko has said or implied about his religion, Logical Deism. You must admit, his beliefs are unconventional, so I was trying very hard to capture them as he says them. I have also tried not to alter them, even to the point of asking Franko to make corrections for me. I have not had much luck in this effort.

Many things on that list are links (they are usually underlined). If you click on them, it will open up the post where Franko made the statement, which may give you more information. You can scroll down or up on that post to see where the belief was discussed. You could also ask Franko, and I wish you luck in doing so. Whatever you do, don't say you believe in free will!

 

[annadee]

Anna, I must apologize. I made a resolution last New Year that I wasn't going to bait Franko, and I have fallen off of it. I admit that it is irritating when he tells me what I believe and I respond with sarcasm. However, in deference to you, I will attempt once again to keep my temper in control.

You mentioned The List. That list is a bunch of things Franko has said or implied about his religion, Logical Deism. You must admit, his beliefs are unconventional, so I was trying very hard to capture them as he says them. I have also tried not to alter them, even to the point of asking Franko to make corrections for me. I have not had much luck in this effort.

Many things on that list are links (they are usually underlined). If you click on them, it will open up the post where Franko made the statement, which may give you more information. You can scroll down or up on that post to see where the belief was discussed. You could also ask Franko, and I wish you luck in doing so. Whatever you do, don't say you believe in free will!

I wasn't talking just about you, Tricky. I see lots of people here picking on Franko. I know he can be rude, but he does have some interesting ideas. Maybe if you guys didn't pick on him so much he would not be so rude.

Thank you for the hint about links. That is very useful. I'm still trying to find out how this board works. I figured out how to use quotes, but you guys do all sorts of things I don't know about.

So here's hoping we can have some nice discussions. I'm not a prude, by any means, but I see no point in name-calling.