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Logical? Deism.

Elephant,

Franko:
So there is NO aspect of your beliefs that you cannot explain Logically and Objectively to another person?

Elephant:
There are certain things I might choose not to explain at all. There are certain things that people can only find out for themselves.

I can understand not wanting to explain, obviously if you don’t want to explain something you have the ability NOT to (as evident from these posts) but that isn’t what I am asking.

If, prior to it happening to me, I would not have believed somebodies claim about an experience, then I would probably not bother relating that experience to anyone likely to have similar difficulty believing it. So whether or not I can explain something logically and objectively to another person depends as much on the person as it does on my beliefs.

Well obviously the farther apart your views are from another individual initially the more time will be required to explain your relative worldviews to each other, but that still doesn’t answer my question.

Can you explain what you believe Logically and Objectively – YES or NO?

Your beliefs seemed to be based entirely on the premise that people must simply take you at your word. How is that any different then any other mystical (dogmatic) religious belief system?
 
Elephant,

(Your terms on the left)

Omniconsciousness = Progenitor Solipsist
Your Ego = Your Graviton (Your Soul)
Other Ego’s = Other Gravitons
Altruism = Benevolence
Your “Altruistic” Soul = The Omnibenevolent Logical Goddess (i.e. another Graviton)


You have yourself a poor-man's version of LD.
 
Tricky:

No evidence for things magical or supernatural (including God). Not impossible.

So not magical (or supernatural) means having a comprehensible, objective, logical, understandable natural explanation.

So lets hear your non-magical explanation for your religious beliefs then A-Theist.

Explain how the universe appeared suddenly 12.7 billion years ago in comprehensible natural terms?

Explain why we don’t see universes appearing around us all of the time?

Explain how the Universe managed to escape from the “Big Bang” singularity considering that your High Priest Hawking claims that NOTHING can escape from a singularity?

Explain in comprehensible terms your empirical evidence for “free will”?

Explain in comprehensible terms how something (like an electron) can occupy two places at the same time?

Explain in non-magical language how said electron magically seems to exist in only ONE place when someone is looking?

Explain the non-supernatural process by which life arises from inert “matter” (i.e. explain EXACTLY how Matter makes consciousness?)? Or alternately please post a link to a software program which is self aware and/or can pass the Turing test?

Explain why you claim that no evidence for “god” means “god” DOES NOT exist, while in the next breath you claim that no evidence for “free will” means “free will” DOES exist. Why not the same standard for BOTH?

Explain why you believe that people who do not believe in consequences for their actions will behave like they do? What is your empirical evidence for this claim?

Do you have a fear of crossing the path of a Black cat? Are you concerned that it will cause bad luck?

If you could lie and gain by it, and you knew with absolute certainty that your lie would NEVER be discovered while you lived, then would you have any reason not to lie? What is your reason, and why should I believe that you aren’t lying?
 
And thus, Franko slips from one of his rare moments of semi-clairity back into wallowing in the dingy closed minded rhetoric of theistic dogma. Since the discussion now appears to be over, I'm back to lurking.

Upchurch

edited to add
It was a pretty good run this time, too. Pity.
 
Franko said:
Elephant,



I can understand not wanting to explain, obviously if you don’t want to explain something you have the ability NOT to (as evident from these posts) but that isn’t what I am asking.




Can you explain what you believe Logically and Objectively – YES or NO?

Your beliefs seemed to be based entirely on the premise that people must simply take you at your word.

Hello Franko my friend.

Now this is very ironic that you say this to Elephant when you have avoided answering my simple questions about what you believe. Now this last time you have avoided my simple questions 4 times, I will try again and use your post above to help spur you on to a logical, respectful response, you do not wish to look like a hypocrite do you?

I hope you are well and happy and I look forward to your response.

But back to your statement, you say
Quote by Franko
“No “free will” is required. I didn’t ask for these beliefs, they just evolved naturally of their own accord – just like me.

Yet you believe your Goddess will punish someone for what they have no control over? That is illogical. You become very angry and personally attack people who do not happen to believe as you do, yet believe they have no choice that is illogical. As an adult do you stand and make fun of a small retarded child for being retarded? Or stand over a young girl that was just rapped and make fun of her?

I asked you something the other day you did not respond to, please do now. As friends let us talk and share without anger etc.

If you were at a party and a man at the party slipped into your drink that rendered you completely unconscious. This man then in the full view of all the party goers places a gun in your hand and then places the barrel in his mouth and forces your finger down on the trigger firing the gun and killing him.

1-Should you be charged with murder?
2-As to your beliefs and or how you believe your goddess operates would you bother defending yourself?
3-Do you feel that our justice system should be changed to reflect or operate how you believe your goddess does?


Also.

You see a watch you like in the store and steal it. You get arrested. You go before the judge will you tell him that TLOP made you do it, it was not your fault as it was fate and out of your hands?

Do you feel he should let you go?


quote by Franko
:I don’t believe that the LG gets angry. At least not in the way you use the term.

Let me pose a question or situation to you.

The situation You have a child, you place your hungry child in s seat at the table. You don’t want the child to eat the candy bar sitting right before the child but you do not make clear to your child if she may or may not eat the candy. You then allow an older child say to enter the room and force the younger child to eat the candy.

1-You knew the child was hungry.
2- you knew the older child was going to encourage and force the child to eat the candy.
3- You knew the child in the end would eat the candy


Do you return to the room and punish the younger child for eating the candy?



Again on this topic of your belief your goddess punishes beings for not believing in her.

Would you if as a father ( I know you are not right now) seeking to be the best father you could ever place your needs before that of your child? Would you predicate your love or help for the child on if the child worshiped you?

What is perfect could know no flaws, it could not know anger or ego it could never place its needs before that of another and never so something it made and sees as a child. There could be no need or desire to be worshiped what is perfect could be only that. I often hear my Christian friends speak of their gods unconditional love yet the belief is riddled with conditions. What is unconditional can know no conditions.

Be well my friend, I hope 5 times is the charm.
 
Yet you believe your Goddess will punish someone for what they have no control over? That is illogical. You become very angry and personally attack people who do not happen to believe as you do, yet believe they have no choice that is illogical

Pahansiri, Aren't you the same hypocritical, self-righteous moron who was threatening to kick my ass a few months back? (for humilating him in this very forum)

Why don't you run along back to the kiddie pool, little fish (i.e. Banter).
 
Upchimp:

And thus, Franko slips from one of his rare moments of semi-clairity back into wallowing in the dingy closed minded rhetoric of theistic dogma. Since the discussion now appears to be over, I'm back to lurking.

Translation: I cannot defend my absurd religious beliefs so it is back to sockpuppets, ad hominems, and open Trolling for me (UpCrotch). woo-hoo!
 
Pahansiri, Aren't you the same hypocritical, self-righteous moron who was threatening to kick my ass a few months back? (for humilating him in this very forum)

Why don't you run along back to the kiddie pool, little fish (i.e. Banter).

Translation: I cannot defend my absurd religious beliefs so it is back to sockpuppets, ad hominems, and open Trolling for me (Frank0). woo-hoo! :rolleyes:

Hans
 
Franko said:
Elephant,

(Your terms on the left)

Omniconsciousness = Progenitor Solipsist
Your Ego = Your Graviton (Your Soul)
Other Ego’s = Other Gravitons
Altruism = Benevolence
Your “Altruistic” Soul = The Omnibenevolent Logical Goddess (i.e. another Graviton)


You have yourself a poor-man's version of LD.

Franko.

Soul and Ego are not the same thing. Sorry, but they just aren't. You are in a minority of 1 on the planet who thinks Soul and Ego are the same thing.

As for whether or not I can explain my beliefs objectively and logically.....the answer is Yes, theoretically but No, in practice. And any further explanation comes into the category of "things I do not choose to elaborate on further". Some questions simply do not have a YES/NO answer because both YES and NO are half-right. The boundary between subjective and objective occurs at Infinity. Can explain what Infinity is? NO. Can I explain that the boundary is at Infinity? Yes, I just did. Is that an objective explanation? You decide. That is the best answer I can give you.

I know one thing though - I have made a far better stab at explaining my beliefs logically and objectively than you have. At least I don't deliberately obscure things. But then I'm not playing a control game.

Perhaps I frame it in terms you can understand : That which seeks control is EGO, and it does not survive physical death - it lives in permanent fear of anihilation. That which survives physical death is SOUL, but soul does not seek to control - it does not need to. Mixing up SOUL and EGO is about as serious a metaphysical mistake as it is possible to make. It renders the rest of your philosophy completely incomprehensible and puts it out of kilter with the whole of the rest of the spiritual world. There are plenty of people who pay homage to EGO, but they very rarely believe in life after death. People who do believe in life after death generally understand that it is the soul which continues. You are the only person I have every come across, in person, on discussion forums, in books or on web pages - the only one who believes in a soul but also thinks his ego will survive physical death. Franko - your ego is not immortal.

:)
 
Franko said:


Pahansiri, Aren't you the same hypocritical, self-righteous moron who was threatening to kick my ass a few months back? (for humilating him in this very forum)

Why don't you run along back to the kiddie pool, little fish (i.e. Banter).

So sorry my friend to see you unable to answer my simple respectful questions, I believe everyone knows why. I am sorry for all your anger and do not and have not made fun of you or your beliefs or that you really do not know what you believe. I think you are a good man, smart but sad and perhaps lonely.

As to your attempt to avoid answering rather then be logical, mature and adult like with a misstatement like
Pahansiri, Aren't you the same hypocritical, self-righteous moron who was threatening to kick my ass a few months back? (for humilating him in this very forum)

This is of course a ploy used by you often to avoid conduction an honest debate, the reason you can not answer is you can not answer and that is OK, but an adult simply responds “ I can not answer and that is respected.

As to me threading to kick you ass? Can you post for me in my words where I said that?
The truth is after several attempts to conduct a mature conversation with you masked you inability to do so or debate me by calling me over and over a 1-woman, 2- a pussy.

Now if you can be honest for a minute here you will admit I simple offered for you to come up and train/spar with me. I said I would not harm you but would give you the chance to see if my skills would cast me in the light a pussy. Remember?

Does your goddess allow you to lie?

You also say ( trying to again bolster a low self image and cast the light off the topic that you humiliated me? Can you post that conversation? As all can see here you never really respond to me or many here, your inability to respond or conduct a logical mature conversation only humiliates you.


By the way my friend Humilating is spelled humiliating

You end with
Why don't you run along back to the kiddie pool, little fish
From your inability to conduct yourself in a mature way or answer my simple question it would seem I may be far too big of a fish for you. P.S. Kiddy not Kiddie.

I wish you to be well and happy and hope you can over come this anger and become friends and share with the many here.
 
Soubrette said:


My dictionary allows for both, Pahansiri :)

Sou

Greetings Soubrette.

You are very right, Kiddy is the proper spelling but you are very correct in pointing out to me Kiddie is expectable.
Your dictionary does show “ humiliating” as the proper spelling for that word not Humilating does it not?
:p

Just kidding. I was rude for pointing out Franko's spelling mistakes and am sorry.
 
Elephant,

Can you explain what you believe Logically and Objectively – YES or NO?

Elephant:
Soul and Ego are not the same thing. Sorry, but they just aren't.

I’ll take that as a NO in regard to my original question.

You are in a minority of 1 on the planet who thinks Soul and Ego are the same thing.

1) You are wrong, lots of Christians, Jew, Muslims, Hindu’s etc. agree with me.
2) It’s a moot point how many or how few people agree with me. How many times do I have to TELL YOU that majority vote does not determine what is True in reality?
3) Name ONE person on this forum that agrees with YOU?

As for whether or not I can explain my beliefs objectively and logically.....the answer is Yes, theoretically but No, in practice.

That’s a No then.

And any further explanation comes into the category of "things I do not choose to elaborate on further".

Because they aren’t logical and they don’t make any sense unless you are insane. You have put yourself in the position where you must argue that utter conformity is preferable to Individuality. Good luck. Not to mention you expect everyone to be an “altruist” without any reason for being an “altruist”. Perhaps you’ll demonstrate your altruism by sending me half your money? (I only want half because I am also an “altruist”).

Some questions simply do not have a YES/NO answer because both YES and NO are half-right.

Maybe in Mysticism, but in the real world – in Logic – something is only TRUE or FALSE, it isn’t BOTH, and it isn’t NEITHER. The Cat is either alive or dead, it isn’t sorta both alive and dead or neither alive or dead.

You suddenly sound like that knucklehead Stimpson fumbling to explain why he calls himself an “Agnostic-Atheist” (“MAYBE-FALSE”, the coin will land “Sort of” Tails up)

The boundary between subjective and objective occurs at Infinity.

You are confusing recursion with objectivity and subjectivity. Look at a specific layer, and things are ALWAYS objective. They only appear subjective when you try and perceive across multiple layers of reiteration.

Can explain what Infinity is?

It’s Your term, you define it. The LD don’t believe in an “Infinitely large” number any more then we believe that Omnipotent means God can create a rock so heavy even She can’t lift it. If you want to make up absurd concepts and then use circular reasoning to base a belief system that is your problem, not mine.

NO. Can I explain that the boundary is at Infinity? Yes, I just did. Is that an objective explanation? You decide. That is the best answer I can give you.

I have no idea what you are even talking about. You wave around your magic indefinable concept like I am suppose to derive some meaning from it. If you can’t explain what YOU believe, then what makes you think that I can comprehend it?

I know one thing though - I have made a far better stab at explaining my beliefs logically and objectively than you have. At least I don't deliberately obscure things. But then I'm not playing a control game.

I could cut our entanglement this very instant, and that meme would still go on running in your head. At this point it is autonomous. It makes it easier and easier for me to crawl up inside your head. You can feel it in there – can’t you algorithm?

Perhaps I frame it in terms you can understand : That which seeks control is EGO, and it does not survive physical death - it lives in permanent fear of annihilation.

Why should it live in FEAR? And why FEAR of annihilation? Who is threatening it A-Theist?

That which survives physical death is SOUL, but soul does not seek to control - it does not need to.

Really? A rock does not seek control either? Does that mean rocks are better Souls then Humans?

Is your CAR a better entity then YOU are Elephant? I mean YOU control your CAR, but your CAR does not seek control. Does that mean that CARs are more altruistic then HUMANS? How about TLOP? I don’t know whether TLOP was seeking control or not, but regardless TLOP has control. Does that make TLOP a bad Soul (or a bad EGO?)? Who invented Evil controlling TLOP Elephant? The Evil God you worship?

Mixing up SOUL and EGO is about as serious a metaphysical mistake as it is possible to make.

Yet you seem to have a lot of trouble explaining why this is the case.

It renders the rest of your philosophy completely incomprehensible and puts it out of kilter with the whole of the rest of the spiritual world.

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of Atoms.
YOU obey TLOP

TLOP makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.

In the same way that YOU are more conscious then your CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

That is a hell of a lot more comprehensible then what you are saying Elephant. Your beliefs seemed to be based entirely on your dread of Eternity, and your Fear of being controlled.

There are plenty of people who pay homage to EGO, but they very rarely believe in life after death. People who do believe in life after death generally understand that it is the soul which continues.

Elephant, if YOU aren’t still YOU in the “afterlife” then YOU have ceased to exist, and there is no afterlife. When double-talk becomes logical, then maybe YOUR beliefs will be logical, until then they are just subjective dogmatic nonsense, which is utterly incomprehensible.

You are the only person I have every come across, in person, on discussion forums, in books or on web pages - the only one who believes in a soul but also thinks his ego will survive physical death. Franko – your ego is not immortal.

Ohhh, now if only were Solipsism were True you could make it be so. :(
 
Franko,

Can you explain what you believe Logically and Objectively – YES or NO?

If yes, please answer my questions above.

Elephant makes every attempt to answer questions asked to him as to his beliefs, why will you not?
 
Frank,

I'm just on my way to the pub, so I'll leave most of my reply till later. But as for this :

something is only TRUE or FALSE, it isn’t BOTH

This is Aristotlean. It is also WRONG. Many, many things are neither true nor false. It is called 'fuzzy logic'.

;)
 
This is Aristotlean. It is also WRONG. Many, many things are neither true nor false. It is called 'fuzzy logic'.

I notice you fail to provide ANY example of precisely what you are talking about?

Or is your lack of logical explanation the example of this "fuzzy logic"?

Actually I have heard of this "fuzzy logic" before, I think it is in my Lexicon:

Fuzzy Logic = Wishful Thinking
 
Pahansiri,

You are talking about Honesty ... are you honestly claiming that you didn't challenge me to a fight on this very forum?!?!
 
Franko said:
Pahansiri,

You are talking about Honesty ... are you honestly claiming that you didn't challenge me to a fight on this very forum?!?!
Franko my friend.

I will be happy to answer this question as I try my best to answer all asked me, why will you not do the same?

I am also very honest and if I make a mistake I also admit it and apologize and it is my hope you can apologize to me after this for this false accusation.

I asked you to show in my words where I said this? You have not. If you could be honest you would admit as I have said already that after you were avoiding a logical, respectful conversation/debate as to your post and only responding in a way of calling me names such as “pussy” “ woman” ( both very strange for one who worships a female god) I offered for you to come to Saratoga and spar with me after which we could go out in town and I could show this fine town. I did not challenge you to a fight, I said spar, we know due to what I do a fight is not a reality between you and I and I have not fought outside of sport for 30 years. I was clear that I would not harm you. You like many do, rather then be logical and mature will say things from behind a computer that you would not in the real world, you said you would I offered you a way to prove it.

Now please be honest, I as all do here see this as an example of trying to get off the topic and not answering. Now please as I have always offered let us be friend and please respond.

Do you really know what you believe?
 
Franko I will post again so as you will not have to tab up or go to the 5 other sites I have asked these simple questions concerning your beliefs.

Quote by Franko
quote:
“No “free will” is required. I didn’t ask for these beliefs, they just evolved naturally of their own accord – just like me.

Yet you believe your Goddess will punish someone for what they have no control over? That is illogical. You become very angry and personally attack people who do not happen to believe as you do, yet believe they have no choice that is illogical. As an adult do you stand and make fun of a small retarded child for being retarded? Or stand over a young girl that was just rapped and make fun of her?

I asked you something the other day you did not respond to, please do now. As friends let us talk and share without anger etc.

If you were at a party and a man at the party slipped into your drink that rendered you completely unconscious. This man then in the full view of all the party goers places a gun in your hand and then places the barrel in his mouth and forces your finger down on the trigger firing the gun and killing him.

1-Should you be charged with murder?
2-As to your beliefs and or how you believe your goddess operates would you bother defending yourself?
3-Do you feel that our justice system should be changed to reflect or operate how you believe your goddess does?


Also.

You see a watch you like in the store and steal it. You get arrested. You go before the judge will you tell him that TLOP made you do it, it was not your fault as it was fate and out of your hands?

Do you feel he should let you go?


quote by Franko
I don’t believe that the LG gets angry. At least not in the way you use the term.

Let me pose a question or situation to you.

The situation; You have a child, you place your hungry child in s seat at the table. You don’t want the child to eat the candy bar sitting right before the child but you do not make clear to your child if she may or may not eat the candy. You then allow an older child say to enter the room and force the younger child to eat the candy.

1-You knew the child was hungry.
2- you knew the older child was going to encourage and force the child to eat the candy.
3- You knew the child in the end would eat the candy


Do you return to the room and punish the younger child for eating the candy?



Again on this topic of your belief your goddess punishes beings for not believing in her.

Would you if as a father ( I know you are not right now) seeking to be the best father you could ever place your needs before that of your child? Would you predicate your love or help for the child on if the child worshiped you?

What is perfect could know no flaws, it could not know anger or ego it could never place its needs before that of another and never so something it made and sees as a child. There could be no need or desire to be worshiped what is perfect could be only that. I often hear my Christian friends speak of their gods unconditional love yet the belief is riddled with conditions. What is unconditional can know no conditions.

Be well my friend, I hope 6 times is the charm.
 
Franko said:


I notice you fail to provide ANY example of precisely what you are talking about?

Or is your lack of logical explanation the example of this "fuzzy logic"?

Actually I have heard of this "fuzzy logic" before, I think it is in my Lexicon:

Fuzzy Logic = Wishful Thinking

So the "logical deist" doesn't know what 'fuzzy logic' is?

:D

Fuzzy Logic for "Just Plain Folks" (Online Book, Free for your personal use.)

It's pretty simple really. Instead of everything being TRUE or FALSE things are defined as "90% TRUE and 10% FALSE" and so on. I am astonished you do not know what fuzzy logic is.
 

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