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Libby indicted..

Uh huh. They reported the same story last year, along with Bush's alleged antidepressant prescription. Oh, and that Mrs. Reagan wouldn't endorse Bush' reelection. And they jumped on the National Inquirer's "Bush is drinking again" bandwagon.

Yeah, that's pretty much a good source for a skeptic's forum. Why not link to Weekly World News and skip the middleman?
 
Euromutt, what you say strikes me as reasonable.
Well, thank you.

I should add that, in my (admittedly subjective) perception, the insistence on the part of certain commentators over the past two years on the supposed violation of the law has made it easier for Republicans and their sympathizers to focus on the legal technicalities and thus draw attention away from the rather less debatable point that dragging Plame into the conflict between Wilson and the White House was simply a despicable thing to do.

In the interest of disclosure, I think Wilson lied in his op-ed piece in the NYT, based on descriptions in the Senate Intelligence Committee's report on the pre-war intel regarding Iraq, which indicate that Wilson, in actual fact, reported back that Iraq had indeed "sought uranium from Africa" (even though no uranium was actually acquired). The fact that the White House never pointed this out, but instead sought to discredit Wilson by claiming he only got the job because of his wife's connections is just so damned typical of this administration. I can only conclude that the White House is so used to distorting the truth that it can no longer tell when the truth is actually to its advantage.
 
And yeah, the White House seems to have been hell-bent on covering up who leaked Plame's name to the press, but as you yourself say, Dave, that's because the leak was arguably a serious breach of public trust, whether it was illegal or not.
I'm of the same opinion. They seem to have only noticed it after the event. Libby briefed as he did, but only subsequently did he lie about it. Given the legal firepower available to the White House vis-a-vis this forum, they must have known that there was nothing illegal to cover-up. So presumably they were covering-up something they recognised as shameful. Shame on them, I say.

Which leaves hanging the question of why did FitzPatrick not simply look at the law, ask the CIA about Plame's status at the relevant times, and drop the case? What exactly was FitzPatrick's remit?
 
The fact that the White House never pointed this out, but instead sought to discredit Wilson by claiming he only got the job because of his wife's connections is just so damned typical of this administration.
The crux. Even if it didn't derive directly from Rove, that's the culture he's created. It's a cancer in the Republican Party.
 
Let me qualify my earlier comment; I won't contend, at this point in time, that no violation of the law occurred. I will, however, contend, that no violation of the law has (yet) been shown to have occurred, and I'm inclined to think--on the basis of my personal experience working as a flunkey in a prosecutorial organization--that two years should be more than enough time to establish whether or not the identification of Valerie Plame as an employee of the CIA actually constituted a violation of the law. Based on what I've read, it appears that Plame does not meet the definition of "covert agent" set out in the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, since she had not worked outside the US in the five years prior to July 2003. Now, I might be misinformed on this point, but I would think that two years would be enough time for a special prosecutor to establish this one way or the other. How hard can it be to find the appropriate people at Langley, place a copy of the Act in front of them and ask "Did Valerie Plame meet the definition of 'covert operative' as of July 2003, yes or no?"?
1) Fitzgerald wasn’t appointed till after the investigation had been going for months and Ashcroft was initially overseeing it. If the investigation truly had no initial crime to investigate why wouldn’t Ashcroft have nipped it in the bud? For that matter, why did the CIA make a criminal referral for a leak investigation.

2)Your argument is based upon a false assumption that the only law that applied was the IPA. The espionage act also could be applied, and Fitzgerald mentioned it in his press conference.

3) Proving the leaks were criminal required more then just establishing whether or not the information was classified, it also requires connecting the leaking to foreknowledge that in this case would also require very malicious (some would say treasonous) intent that I could see a (republican appointed) prosecutor wanting to be very sure of before he made the charge. Fitzgerald spoke to this issue with his baseball analogy, from his press conference:

“Let me then ask your next question: Well, why is this a leak investigation that doesn't result in a charge? I've been trying to think about how to explain this, so let me try. I know baseball analogies are the fad these days. Let me try something.

If you saw a baseball game and you saw a pitcher wind up and throw a fastball and hit a batter right smack in the head, and it really, really hurt them, you'd want to know why the pitcher did that. And you'd wonder whether or not the person just reared back and decided, I've got bad blood with this batter. He hit two home runs off me. I'm just going to hit him in the head as hard as I can.

You also might wonder whether or not the pitcher just let go of the ball or his foot slipped, and he had no idea to throw the ball anywhere near the batter's head. And there's lots of shades of gray in between.

You might learn that you wanted to hit the batter in the back and it hit him in the head because he moved. You might want to throw it under his chin, but it ended up hitting him on the head.

And what you'd want to do is have as much information as you could. You'd want to know: What happened in the dugout? Was this guy complaining about the person he threw at? Did he talk to anyone else? What was he thinking? How does he react? All those things you'd want to know.

And then you'd make a decision as to whether this person should be banned from baseball, whether they should be suspended, whether you should do nothing at all and just say, Hey, the person threw a bad pitch. Get over it.

In this case, it's a lot more serious than baseball. And the damage wasn't to one person. It wasn't just Valerie Wilson. It was done to all of us.

snip

And what we have when someone charges obstruction of justice, the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He's trying to figure what happened and somebody blocked their view.

As you sit here now, if you're asking me what his motives were, I can't tell you; we haven't charged it.".
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/28/p...all&adxnnlx=1130980849-2m4ayWe4bKT/jWwJRpt7nA
 
1)And what we have when someone charges obstruction of justice, the umpire gets sand thrown in his eyes. He's trying to figure what happened and somebody blocked their view.
But in this case Valerie Plame was hit on the head - her covert status was busted - or she wasn't - she had no covert status. I do not find FitzPatrick's analogy informative.

If it were rugby, and someone blocked the referee's view contemporaneous with an alleged stamping in a ruck, it would arouse my suspicions. Baseball is not a contact-sport, it's a very open and visible contest. If a batter gets hit on the head, everybody knows it. Some partisans cheer, others call foul. Nobody makes up the hit on the head.

If there was no hit on the head, why did FitzPatrick even investigate who did it and why?
 
1) Fitzgerald wasn’t appointed till after the investigation had been going for months and Ashcroft was initially overseeing it. If the investigation truly had no initial crime to investigate why wouldn’t Ashcroft have nipped it in the bud? For that matter, why did the CIA make a criminal referral for a leak investigation.
1a) Because it would have been impolitic for Ashcroft to do so; with Ashcroft as close to the White House as he was, the chorus of "cover-up!" would have been deafening, and understandably so.
1b) Because, as I alluded to previously, the Agency doesn't like having its secrets exposed. While I'm on the topic, when did it become fashionable on the American left to the word of the Central Intelligence Agency as the measure of morality? This is an agency which, as far as we're aware, is involved in the detention and torture of suspected terrorists in various parts of Asia right now.
2)Your argument is based upon a false assumption that the only law that applied was the IPA. The espionage act also could be applied, and Fitzgerald mentioned it in his press conference.
True, the Espionage Act of 1917 could be applied. That's because it's so broadly worded it could be applied to a lot of things, including things which your average citizen who is concerned about the transparency of government would prefer not to see it applied. That's why the IIPA exists; it doesn't outlaw anything that wasn't already outlawed under the Espionage Act, but it's more specific and narrowly worded so that it couldn't be used to impose government restrictions on press freedom.

Fitzgerald's rather wordy baseball analogy doesn't work, because before you can investigate whether the batter was intentionally hit with the ball, you first have to establish that he was actually struck. And that's exactly what I'm arguing has not been established.
 
But in this case Valerie Plame was hit on the head - her covert status was busted - or she wasn't - she had no covert status. I do not find FitzPatrick's analogy informative.

If it were rugby, and someone blocked the referee's view contemporaneous with an alleged stamping in a ruck, it would arouse my suspicions. Baseball is not a contact-sport, it's a very open and visible contest. If a batter gets hit on the head, everybody knows it. Some partisans cheer, others call foul. Nobody makes up the hit on the head.

If there was no hit on the head, why did FitzPatrick even investigate who did it and why?
Because there was a hit on the head. But in baseball you have to know why someone was hit in the head before you make your decision about how to react. It’s one of those things that’s a serious offense to do intentionally but only a minor thing when done by accident. Similarly the Espionage Act and IIPA require that there has to be a certain level of intent or foreknowledge to be part of the leak for it to be a crime.
 
1a) Because it would have been impolitic for Ashcroft to do so; with Ashcroft as close to the White House as he was, the chorus of "cover-up!" would have been deafening, and understandably so.
If there was no crime than just presenting the facts and closing the investriagtion is the obvious smart move. Cries of “cover up” did not initially cause Ashcroft to recuse himself so he had enough time to look into the matter and righteously publicly kill it if it was a non-crime.

1b) Because, as I alluded to previously, the Agency doesn't like having its secrets exposed.
Are you suggesting that CIA criminal referral was dishonest?

While I'm on the topic, when did it become fashionable on the American left to the word of the Central Intelligence Agency as the measure of morality?
Not sure what you are referring to exactly but in general the Bush team makes almost everyone else around them look more trustworthy.
This is an agency which, as far as we're aware, is involved in the detention and torture of suspected terrorists in various parts of Asia right now.
You think Bushco doesn’t know and approve of that?!?

I’m not sure about how well it was handled but under Clinton there was serious attempt to clean up the CIA (started by the torture of some people in central America and then a CIA station chief lying to congress about it) but post 9/11 the Clinton era CIA reforms were largely tossed.

True, the Espionage Act of 1917 could be applied. That's because it's so broadly worded it could be applied to a lot of things, including things which your average citizen who is concerned about the transparency of government would prefer not to see it applied.
So you agree that your earlier post was incorrect and that claiming there was no crime if she wasn’t legally “covert” under the IIPA was be false?

That's why the IIPA exists; it doesn't outlaw anything that wasn't already outlawed under the Espionage Act, but it's more specific and narrowly worded so that it couldn't be used to impose government restrictions on press freedom.
Fitzgerald did mention the espionage Act should be used cautiously.

Fitzgerald's rather wordy baseball analogy doesn't work, because before you can investigate whether the batter was intentionally hit with the ball, you first have to establish that he was actually struck. And that's exactly what I'm arguing has not been established.
He does know the batter was struck!

Fitzgerald at the press conference:

“Before I talk about those charges and what the indictment alleges, I'd like to put the investigation into a little context.

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life.

The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well- known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It's important that a CIA officer's identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation's security.

Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/28/p...all&adxnnlx=1130980849-2m4ayWe4bKT/jWwJRpt7nA

The point of the baseball analogy is just because pitcher hits a batter in the head and seriously inures them it doesn’t mean it was intentional and that the pitcher was guilty of serious wrongdoing. It’s something that could just be an unfortunate accident. Likewise, it’s possible that a leaker who informally received classified information might have been confused about it’s status (or received the information without it’s status being made clear to them) and then they would be innocent under the Espionage Act or IIPA for reasons having nothing to do with the actual status of the information/agent/batter.
 
While I'm on the topic, when did it become fashionable on the American left to the word of the Central Intelligence Agency as the measure of morality? This is an agency which, as far as we're aware, is involved in the detention and torture of suspected terrorists in various parts of Asia right now.

There are lots of good people working for the CIA, but the CIA has also done lots of unethical things. Welcome to the complex world that is reality, where not everything is black and white.

Or would you prefer the left cried, "Abolish the CIA!" all day long to maintain their moral purity? I'm sure that would be very productive. The torture would probably end overnight along with the war. Then we could all go dance naked in the fields.
 
Why not link to Weekly World News and skip the middleman?

20040909-1_hx0l0018-515h.jpg


And get your wife off your back... by acting like me!


Here, from Dr. Philpot's book, are six ways to stop a wife's nagging by acting like the President:


1 INVOKE RELIGION. If your wife accuses you of infidelity or drinking too much or spending too much time with the boys, deflect her charges by steering the conversation to religion.

Talk about your deep, personal faith in a higher power, and if she's really PO'd, ask her to join you in prayer. It's hard to ream someone out when you're on your knees communing with the Lord.


2 STAMMER, STUTTER AND STALL. When the little lady starts bitching about something you have or haven't done and demands a response, take your time about giving it to her.

Hem and haw. Choose your words carefully to make sure your answer makes no sense. While she's scratching her head trying to figure out what you said, make a run for the 7-Eleven or go mow the lawn.


3 NEVER ADMIT YOU'VE DONE ANYTHING WRONG. If a nagging spouse says you forgot to take out the garbage or fix a leaky faucet, look her in the eyes and say, "Yes I did" -- even if you didn't. If she argues with you, don't fight back -- simply hold your ground.


4 SWAGGER AND SCOWL. Nothing shuts up a nagging wife like a "manly man" swaggering around the room and scowling the whole time she's trying to dress him down. It's the same move the President used on John Kerry during the presidential debates -- and look who's in the White House now!


5 GO AWOL. When the National Guard got in the way of his partying in 1973, the President pulled a vanishing act and then opted out with an early resignation. When the wife gets on your case, head for the hills. Don't come back until she's had plenty of time to cool off, even if it means steering clear of her for days.


http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/how_to/61571
 
Nicely argued curi0us, Bill Buckley seems to agree with you in his editorial here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200511011324.asp

Although, I did find your posts a little clearer than his article I had to take your points with a grain of salt because of your failure to work the word "tricoteuses " into them.

Before I read this article, I hadn't realized that Buckley had worked for the CIA. That is a strange coincidence. The CIA operative that was captured and eventually killed (probably, he died in captivity anyway) in Lebanon during the hostage crises was named Bill Buckley also.
 
Sorry about the delay in responding to some of the points here; it's been a busy week.
There are lots of good people working for the CIA, but the CIA has also done lots of unethical things. Welcome to the complex world that is reality, where not everything is black and white.
Well, yes, I'm perfectly aware that the real world isn't particularly straightforward. I acknowledge that what the CIA does is a dirty job but somebody's got to do it, and I'm glad somebody is willing to. However, secretive organizations like the CIA need to be kept honest, and requires oversight, and even the occasional leak. Even if that leak is, technically, a violation of the Espionage Act (which is a pretty awful piece of legislation anyway, which is why much of it was repealed in 1921).

I don't know if you saw this, but the Agency has now requested the DoJ to launch a criminal inquiry "to determine the source of a Washington Post article that said the agency had set up a covert prison network in Eastern Europe and other countries to hold important terrorism suspects."
Now, if this story is true--and given the WaPo's record, I'm inclined to think it is, especially also given the exemption granted the CIA from the prohibition on torture passed by the Senate some weeks ago--this is precisely the sort of leak needed to keep the Agency honest. And it illustrates perfectly that just because the CIA reckons something untoward occurred, that doesn't make it necessarily so; they might just as well be hacked off because someone made them look bad.

My point was that the same might well apply to the Plame leak as well, and so I'm rather incredulous towards arguments that the CIA's request for a criminal investigation into the Plame leak was necessarily motivated solely by a desire to see justice done. The Agency has repeatedly butted heads with the White House and the DoD under this administration, and I'm inclined to think this has more to do with why these arguments are being offered than with any actual trust in the Agency's moral integrity. It's "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" reasoning.

I think that also covers a number of counterpoints that curi0us made, so I'll move on...
So you agree that your earlier post was incorrect and that claiming there was no crime if she wasn’t legally “covert” under the IIPA was be false?
I'd be willing to concede that I may have been incorrect that no violation of the law occurred in the event that Plame did not meet the definition of a "covert agent." However, I will stress that that does not invalidate a majority of my points. First, that even after two years of investigation, Fitzgerald still has yet to prove that a violation of either the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the Espionage Act occurred. Second, it should be noted that the Espionage Act only recently received mention in this affair; for the two years previously, everyone was focused exclusively on the IIPA, blithely disregarding the question of whether a violation of the latter act actually occurred; evidently, it did not.
He does know the batter was struck!
Only if you accept the idea that the leaking of Plame's name was, in and of itself, analogous to the baseball bouncing off the batter's head. If we have to pursue that analogy, my objection is that Fitzgerald is unwilling (or unable) to point to actually the rulebook and say straight out, page and paragraph, which rule was actually broken. And, frankly, the analogy stinks to begin with because criminal law and baseball are two different things, and (again, as a former member of a prosecutions staff) I don't think much of a prosecutor who has to resort to baseball analogies (for Ed's sake!) to make his point.
 
This strikes me as a strange response by the White House. It seemed that what Novak was trying to say was that the leaker was so highly placed that even a few cursory questions by the president would have put the leaker or his direct supervisor into the position of either making a stone cold lie to the president or admitting that there he was the leaker. The problem with the stone cold lie approach is that there are a limited number of people who might have made the leak and if everybody denies making the leak the president will pretty much know he's being lied to and with a little effort he probably could figure out who it was.

A third possibility is that the president didn't ask anybody about anything with regard to the Plame leak or when he did ask he was satisfied with a "you don't want to know" kind of answer.

Given any of those possibilities how is it in the president's interest to say anything at this point? I guess this is part of a strategy where when the leaker is finally revealed the president can claim that he didn't know who he was until up to that point. And I suppose that this a reasonable strategy. The Bush supporters won't have any problems with it and the anti-bush crowd won't be much more pissed off at Bush no matter what he does with regard to the Plamegate scandal.

ETA: I just realized that there is another possibility here. The president may be making a stone cold lie himself.
 
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Cheney 'Authorized' Libby to Leak Classified Information

Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, testified to a federal grand jury that he had been "authorized" by Cheney and other White House "superiors" in the summer of 2003 to disclose classified information to journalists to defend the Bush administration's use of prewar intelligence in making the case to go to war with Iraq, according to attorneys familiar with the matter, and to court records.

Libby specifically claimed that in one instance he had been authorized to divulge portions of a then-still highly classified National Intelligence Estimate regarding Saddam Hussein's purported efforts to develop nuclear weapons, according to correspondence recently filed in federal court by special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald.

Beyond what was stated in the court paper, say people with firsthand knowledge of the matter, Libby also indicated what he will offer as a broad defense during his upcoming criminal trial: that Vice President Cheney and other senior Bush administration officials had earlier encouraged and authorized him to share classified information with journalists to build public support for going to war. Later, after the war began in 2003, Cheney authorized Libby to release additional classified information, including details of the NIE, to defend the administration's use of prewar intelligence in making the case for war.

[...]

Libby's legal strategy in asserting that Cheney and other Bush administration officials authorized activities related to the underlying allegations of criminal conduct leveled against him, without approving of or encouraging him to engage in the specific misconduct, is reminiscent of the defense strategy used by Oliver North, who was a National Security Council official in the Reagan administration.
 
ETA: I just realized that there is another possibility here. The president may be making a stone cold lie himself.

Ya think?

Either Bush is totally oblivious to what his own people are doing or he is lying.
 

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