Liability and Chess

[Meadmaker]

The irrational fear of being sued stems from the urban legends surrounding frivolous lawsuits.

"Did you hear about that guy who tried to hang himself, failed, and then sued the rope company?"

The vast majority of cases like that are laughed out of court before the summons has a chance to cool off. You might even get lawyer's fees back. It isn't that the courts don't work, it is that they force you to "lawyer up".

You're right, sort of.

I have been arranging events periodically for twenty years or so. I didn't do it myself all that often, but I did occasionally do so, and I was part of organizations that did so. Once upon a time, only a couple of decades ago, it was a lot easier to find a place to do the sorts of things we did, whether it was martial arts, dancing, or chess.

Today, we have to pay higher fees, and more sites are simply totally off limits. This isn't some sort of irrational fear involved. It's insurance costs. Insurance companies are the ultimate in rational, and they charge more than they used to, or, in order to keep the costs lower, they place more restrictions on their insured parties.

 

[Meadmaker]

Meadmaker:

How can you be sure it was the insurance company's fault and not just the library fobbing you off?

It's part of a pattern. The library was an example.


To some extent, of course, it was just the library. Not everywhere has the same issues. I'm currently looking for a place for a tournament. I can find places that let me move the tables. However, it isn't as easy as it was 20 years ago.

 

[KingMerv00]

Where would one file such a suit (which court), and who would I name in it, IF I do indeed have grounds for such action?

The court systems vary so much from place to place that I can't help you with jurisdiction off the top of my head. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some way to file an administrative complaint to a city official.

My first (and only 60% educated) guess is that it would be more effective and that you would lose in court anyway.

 

[KingMerv00]

I find it ironic that a thread that began with a library reacting out of fear of lawsuits has now led to a discussion of suing a library.

Well not all lawsuits are frivolous.

The library's funding must come from somewhere, the city or county. I suspect you'd have much better luck going over the Library Board president's head to a city councillor or county commissioner or whoever rather than going to court. Not to mention it would be much cheaper, and if your group can't afford another meeting place, I doubt it can afford a lawsuit.

Seconded.

 

[KingMerv00]

This is a public library. He had standing to sue as soon as they denied him use of the facility.

Doesn't work that way. The courts despise getting involved in the minutiae of running a business or public facility. Matters like that are left to appointed officials and judges will generally defer to their decisions.

The courts only become involved if the library's decision is arbitrary, capricious, or a violation of law.

It sucks. Sometimes public facilities are just run poorly.

Edit: I didn't mean to suggest he didn't have standing, just that he doesn't have standing based on his taxpayer status.

 

[Spindrift]

It's part of a pattern. The library was an example.


To some extent, of course, it was just the library. Not everywhere has the same issues. I'm currently looking for a place for a tournament. I can find places that let me move the tables. However, it isn't as easy as it was 20 years ago.

As someone who is in charge of renting a small hall, I can tell you that whenever we don't want the renters to do something we always claim "insurance won't let us do that". It's a convenient excuse and one that people seem to readily accept.

Why wouldn't we want someone to move tables? Because renters are not very gentle and scuff up the floor. That takes longer to clean up than for us to have someone set up the tables properly. That's why we do it. In the past, when we told people the real reason, they would always "promise" to be careful, but too many times it just didn't work out. So we use the insurance bogeyman.

$400 does seem a bit steep for just a room. Have you tried volunteer fire depts?

 

[NoZed Avenger]

For several years, a local chess club in my middling-sized town used the back room of a restaurant. The meetings were held on an "off" night for the restaurant when it was not full, and we promised that a number of people would be purchasing food, etc. Not everyone did so every week, but as long as a reasonable number did, the restaurant was happy.

It also had plenty of tables and seating available, and they are already insured against accidents on the property.

 

[drkitten]

The courts only become involved if the library's decision is arbitrary, capricious, or a violation of law.

Yes, and he has standing to sue on exactly that basis. He was denied access to the facilities on a basis he can allege is arbitrary and capricious.

"Standing to sue" doesn't equal "standing to win" -- but the suit would stand, the papers would be accepted, and someone in the library would be faced with trying to justify the basis for these unpublished regulations.

Edit: I didn't mean to suggest he didn't have standing, just that he doesn't have standing based on his taxpayer status.

No, he has standing as a person denied access to a public facility on an apparently arbitrary and capricious basis.

 

[Spindrift]

"higher up on the library ladder"...?

I have spoken with the Library Board President, who informed me that several parents would need to attend, who'd be higher?

I'd also add that the library's policy mentions NONE of the conditions we/the Chess Club have been required to fulfill.

Our local library has the policy of only allowing groups to use their community room no more than once in a month and no more than six times a year. The reason for this is that the room is constantly in demand (it's free) and they don't want anyone to monopolize the resource. Another reason is that the intention of the room is NOT for regular meetings, it's main purpose is for one off meetings. I believe they had prior bad experience with a group that met regularly and thought they had squatters rights. They started decorating the room and it got to the point they would call up other groups and cancel their reservations because they wanted the room on a particular night. One group got fed up when they couldn't get access and went to the paper and the uproar got things changed.

 

[Spindrift]

Double post

 

[KingMerv00]

Yes, and he has standing to sue on exactly that basis. He was denied access to the facilities on a basis he can allege is arbitrary and capricious.

"Standing to sue" doesn't equal "standing to win" -- but the suit would stand, the papers would be accepted, and someone in the library would be faced with trying to justify the basis for these unpublished regulations.



No, he has standing as a person denied access to a public facility on an apparently arbitrary and capricious basis.

I agreed with you from the beginning but I probably didn't communicate it clearly enough. Sorry.

I just have my doubts that he would win.

 

[drkitten]

I just have my doubts that he would win.

I suspect it would never get to court. As soon as the papers got served, the library would change its written policies.

 

[King of the Americas]

Thank you all for your input and exchanges, they are indeed quite helpful.

Firstly, I'd like to say I have no desire to sue the Library, this one or any other one. "Libraries" are buildings with cataloged media inside, available to the public. I volunteered my time, and donated my own personal resources including Books, VHS's, DVD's, Books on tape, and even cash. I don't want to see that hurt, or left unable to perform it's duty.

'I' want the Library to be what a Library is supposed to be. My Director and the Board want something different. The Board President told me point black, that a local library should be at least in part, "a reflection of the community's standards, viewpoints, and interests", whereas 'I' thought it should be a "window unto the world, unaffected by the local biases and viewpoints".

Our meeting room is empty most of the time. In fact, besides our group, there was craft time that takes place every Tuesday morning, and the Library Board which meets only once a month. And the Boy and Girl Scouts that use the room once ever 2 or 3 months! When I volunteered, I was always 'trying' to get the room booked, otherwise it is just a wasted resource.

Our group has decided to circulate an un-official petition, humbly suggesting that anyone working in or with the Library take an oath of office to promise to protect and uphold the American Library Association's "Library Bill of Rights"

http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/statementspols/statementsif/librarybillrights.htm

The last of which would cover our group's activity:

"VI. Libraries which make exhibit spaces and meeting rooms available to the public they serve should make such facilities available on an equitable basis, regardless of the beliefs or affiliations of individuals or groups requesting their use."

After we've collected a few signatures, we'll submit it to the City Counsel, along with an offical complaint that we feel as though we were treated 'differently' than any other group, and that the Library Board violated or abandoned their own policy regarding the use of such facilities, in order to deny us access.

I asked questions about a possible suit, because I just want to be prepared for any eventuality. I am beginning to doubt seriously that our little petition will have any positive influence. I fear that I may have to threaten suit, to make them believe this is serious, and maybe even file, if only to make them offer us a 'deal'... Who know where this will end.

 

[Dunstan]

Well not all lawsuits are frivolous.

I agree with that, and in fact it's kind of my point. Nobody thinks his own lawsuit is frivolous, and everyone wants to "do something" about frivolous lawsuits, but it's a different issue when it comes time to specifically identify which lawsuits are frivolous.

I don't have a problem with KoA filing a lawsuit if it comes to that, though I think it should be a last resort (and I gather from his last post he thinks so, too). (And I agree with you that it's not likely to succeed.) I like his petition idea, and whoever suggested upthread that he get the media involved, too -- this seems like the kind of story that whoever covers local politics should like. That kind of attention might get the city council to lean on the library a little.

 

[King of the Americas]

I'd really rather not file a suit, but that said I am meeting with an attorney tomorrow, mostly to ask her to sign our petition. However, I do plan to submit to her all the paperwork I have collected on the Library's policy, our rejected applications, and copies of applications that have aquired use of the room.

Muenster is a German Catholic community, communistic in behavior and ritualistic in practice. 'Change', liberalism, and freedom of speech or expression are things to be hated, dispised, and crushed at first sign.

I fear that our petition will be scoffed at, or many in this town will outrightly refuse to sign.

What do I need to demonstrate, FOR such a suit to succeed?

 

[Dunstan]

Muenster is a German Catholic community, communistic in behavior and ritualistic in practice. 'Change', liberalism, and freedom of speech or expression are things to be hated, dispised, and crushed at first sign.

I fear that our petition will be scoffed at, or many in this town will outrightly refuse to sign.

Tailor your message to the audience. Focus on the waste of tax dollars. Mention that clubs like yours are important for "keeping kids off the streets." (I'm just throwing out suggestions; you know your community better than me.)

What do I need to demonstrate, FOR such a suit to succeed?

This is really a question for your attorney tomorrow. There are often special "hoops" you have to jump through before you can sue a government entity. Sometimes you have to make a formal demand on the appropriate government body. Sometimes you have to do what's called "exhaustion of administrative remedies." You really need someone who knows the laws and procedures of your state, county, city, etc. Nobody is going to give you legal advice over the internet that's worth taking.

 

[KingMerv00]

I suspect it would never get to court. As soon as the papers got served, the library would change its written policies.

Sounds about right.

 

[KingMerv00]

I agree with that, and in fact it's kind of my point. Nobody thinks his own lawsuit is frivolous, and everyone wants to "do something" about frivolous lawsuits, but it's a different issue when it comes time to specifically identify which lawsuits are frivolous.

I don't have a problem with KoA filing a lawsuit if it comes to that, though I think it should be a last resort (and I gather from his last post he thinks so, too). (And I agree with you that it's not likely to succeed.) I like his petition idea, and whoever suggested upthread that he get the media involved, too -- this seems like the kind of story that whoever covers local politics should like. That kind of attention might get the city council to lean on the library a little.

Agreed. Lawsuits should always be a last resort.

 

[KingMerv00]

What do I need to demonstrate, FOR such a suit to succeed?

I really hope it doesn't come to a lawsuit but just in case I'll try my best to give some general advice.

1)Exhaust all administrative remedies first as Dunstan suggested.

2)Look for written policies that specifically forbid their behavior.

3)Look for evidence that your group is treated different that other groups.

4)If you don't find any policies or laws that work against them, try your best to put into words specifically why you feel the library's current policy is arbitrary.

 

[Meadmaker]

As someone who is in charge of renting a small hall, I can tell you that whenever we don't want the renters to do something we always claim "insurance won't let us do that". It's a convenient excuse and one that people seem to readily accept.

I suspected that was a lot of it.

I can say, though, that over the course of twenty years, it has grown more difficult to find meeting places. That's anecdotal evidence, but I think stats would back me up that liability insurance rates have increased in that same period. Urban legends and bogeymen don't make rates increase. There must be something real to the phenomenon, and my point was that the liability/lawsuit culture affects us in ways we don't realize, including making it more expensive to run a chess tournament.

$400 does seem a bit steep for just a room. Have you tried volunteer fire depts?

I never thought of that.

Community centers in other communities have been more accomodating. Different cities definitely have different attitudes on what is appropriate use of their facilities, and how much they want people in them. It's just a matter of finding the right ones. Nevertheless, the issue of liability insurance is a very real, and very costly, complicating factor.