LDS

[skyrider44]

If that were the only possible meaning of 'dogma' then you might be right, but it isn't, now, is it? You would need to rule out all of the other definitions before you can conclude "LDS doctrine is not dogma."

Consider the full set of the Merriam Webster definitions:

...or perhaps The Free Dictionary site is more to your liking:

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

 

[Slowvehicle]

If that were the only possible meaning of 'dogma' then you might be right, but it isn't, now, is it? You would need to rule out all of the other definitions before you can conclude "LDS doctrine is not dogma."

Consider the full set of the Merriam Webster definitions:



...or perhaps The Free Dictionary site is more to your liking:

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

Cherry-pick much?

 

[RandFan]

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

Let me understand what you are saying, we cannot use other definitions because you prefer the third definition?

 

[RandFan]

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

FWIW: Words are not laws of physics that govern the universe.. They are a means to transmit ideas from one person to the other. It is up to the person who used the word to define his or her terms. IOW: What you prefer does not alter the meaning of the person who used the word.

 

[Foster Zygote]

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

And what are the other definitions?

It's like you're participating in an argument about the 1st World War, and having been challenged to defend one of your claims, you choose instead to attack your opponent's character by claiming that he thinks the war of 1914 to 1918 was a wonderful thing because he referred to it as "the Great War".

Why not address the issue of "religious insights"? You claimed that Mormonism offered certain insights that are evidence of its veracity. When asked to present some of these insights, you provided specific Mormon beliefs. That's no different than saying, "Of course Hubbard was right. How else would he have known about engrams?".

An insight that would support Smith's claims to be in contact with God would be something like declaring that there was an eighth planet beyond Uranus, or that the universe is expanding, or that there are invisible stars that have such high gravity that they consume everything that comes too close, including light itself. You can't point to the unsubstantiated supernatural claims of your religion as evidence of its truth.

 

[Olowkow]

I'd better make sure I specify Webster's #1 next time I order filet of sole in Provo.

 

[Lucian]

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

More to my liking is the I-don't-know-how-many-pages-but-it's-a-lot Oxford English Dictionary. Its entry begins with the following etymology:

< Middle French, French dogme (1570 in sense 1) and its etymon classical Latin dogma doctrine, tenet, principle, in post-classical Latin also decree, order (Vulgate), orthodox belief, religious doctrine (4th cent.) < ancient Greek δογματ- , δόγμα that which seems to someone, opinion, belief, doctrine, decree < δοκεῖν to seem, to seem good, to think, suppose, imagine ( < the same base as δέχεσθαι to receive: see pandect n.1) + -μα (see -oma comb. form).

This is followed by the first definition:

1. An opinion, a belief; spec. a tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, esp. by a church or sect. Also: an imperious or arrogant declaration of opinion.

The pejorative meaning is there, but it's added at the end. The first quotation, from a 1534 translation of Erasmus's Enchiridion Militis Christiani is somewhat pejorative, but it uses "dogmas" and "doctrine" synonymously:

The Bragmanyes Cynikis Stoikes be wonte to defende their dogmies [L. dogmata] and doctryne styfly with tothe and nayle.

Definition 2:

The body of opinion, esp. on religious matters, formulated or laid down authoritatively or assertively; systematized belief; tenets or principles collectively; doctrine.

In other words, your assertion that LDS doctrine is not dogma and that "dogma" necessarily carries a negative connotation is simply wrong.

 

[Pixel42]

Minor points of grammar, preferred dictionary definitions, rules of moderation ... it seems Mormon posters will always seize any opportunity to endlessly nitpick about such things in order to avoid having to face up to the fraudulent nature of their scriptures.

 

[skyrider44]

Cherry-pick much?

That's what you do here (cherry pick) and it's what RF did in his post. I gave the third definition of dogma in my earlier post from the most comprehensive dictionary availble with the exception of England's Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

 

[abaddon]

Minor points of grammar, preferred dictionary definitions, rules of moderation ... it seems Mormon posters will always seize any opportunity to endlessly nitpick about such things in order to avoid having to face up to the fraudulent nature of their scriptures.

That's what you do here (cherry pick) and it's what RF did in his post. I gave the third definition of dogma in my earlier post from the most comprehensive dictionary availble with the exception of England's Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

Nuff said.

 

[Slowvehicle]

That's what you do here (cherry pick) and it's what RF did in his post. I gave the third definition of dogma in my earlier post from the most comprehensive dictionary availble with the exception of England's Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

Your attempt at tu quoque fails without evidence.

You tried to get away with pretending the one definition that served your needs best was the only definition, and got called on it by multiple posters.

LDS is a sect.

Dogma is a perfectly acceptable non-pejorative word for a set of beliefs.

It is, as you demonstrate, much easier to try to cause derails than to address actual issues.

 

[RandFan]

That's what you do here (cherry pick) and it's what RF did in his post. I gave the third definition of dogma in my earlier post from the most comprehensive dictionary availble with the exception of England's Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

• You were not the person who introduced the word into this discussion.
• Someone else chose that word in an attempt to transmit information from his mind to ours.
• We understood what the poster meant by "dogma".
• You didn't like the word as you assumed that it was used pejoratively so you cherry picked a definition to justify your position.
• Since you did not originally choose the word you do not get to decide what the poster who did pick the word meant.

Perhaps you could ask what was meant.

That being said, A.) please address me directly when you make accusations against me. B.) Please provide a citation when you make direct accusations against me. In which post did I "cherry pick"?

 

[RandFan]

It is, as you demonstrate, much easier to try to cause derails than to address actual issues.

Skyrider, if you are sincere in a discussion then the principle of charity dictates that you at least ask the poster who first used the word "dogma" what he or she meant. Or, you should give the best possible reading to the word. Otherwise the discussion is sidetracked with a silly semantics argument. It's a dodge to avoid the real issues.

Even if the word was meant to be pejorative it does not mean that what you posted was not dogma. It is by definition.

 

[Lucian]

That's what you do here (cherry pick) and it's what RF did in his post. I gave the third definition of dogma in my earlier post from the most comprehensive dictionary availble with the exception of England's Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

You mean the Oxford English Dictionary? The one I quoted two posts up from yours? The one that uses "doctrine" in both of its definitions of "dogma"?

 

[Foster Zygote]

I gave the third definition of dogma in my earlier post from the most comprehensive dictionary availble with the exception of England's Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

You cherry picked the definition that would allow you to evade addressing my point by playing the victim. Since it was my post that originally made use of the word, let me make clear, once and finally, that the definition of the word as used by me in this context was the one I gave in post #6555: a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

Is there any point in asking you to return to the subject of "religious insights" and the problems that have been pointed out regarding the examples you've proffered?

 

[halleyscomet]

Minor points of grammar, preferred dictionary definitions, rules of moderation ... it seems Mormon posters will always seize any opportunity to endlessly nitpick about such things in order to avoid having to face up to the fraudulent nature of their scriptures.

I can't blame them. The last time a Mormon tried to prove anything in their scriptures, he ended up accidentally debunking the "Perl of Great Price" by sending copies of the remaining papyrus to Egyptologists. When efforts at providing evidence result in such catastrophic failure, one expects the faithful to go into reality denial mode instead.

 

[jsfisher]

More to my liking is the 2,662-page Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. It defines "dogma" precisely as I posted it, and third on its list.

Why are you ignoring the substance of my post and the multiple others making the same point? 'Dogma' has several meanings. At least one of the definitions in your preferred 2,662-page tome makes it clear that LDS doctrine is LDS dogma.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

 

[halleyscomet]

Why are you ignoring the substance of my post and the multiple others making the same point? 'Dogma' as several meanings. At least one of the definitions in your preferred 2,662-page tome makes it clear that LDS doctrine is LDS dogma.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

 

[skyrider44]

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

Please stop with these senseless language quibbles. They only serve to give the impression you are trying to be evasive.

For the record: 1) It was Foster Z, in Post 6545, who was among the first to use the word "dogma." He wrote: "I'm sorry, but just quoting a bunch of dogma as though it is self-evidently true doesn't qualify as evidence of the truth of your doctrine. . . ." It is clear from the context that Foster Z was using a form of the third definition from Webster's Third New International Dictionary when he wrote "dogma." 2) RF, in Post 6532, wrote that "Dogma is not per se pejorative" and "LDS doctrine is dogma by definition." Both statements are reckless conjecture. In the first statement, RF found it necessary to insert the disclaimer per se to justify his claim. He was well aware of the negativity associated with dogma. 3) In my response, I indicated--by the use of a bold-faced "c" in citing the definitiion by Webster's Third New International Dictionary--that those oppossing me fully intended to use dogma pejoratively. They did so initially and have done so throughout this exchange. They have every right to do that, but no amount of spinning can disguise their intent.

 

[RandFan]

For the record: 1) It was Foster Z, in Post 6545, who was among the first to use the word "dogma." He wrote: "I'm sorry, but just quoting a bunch of dogma as though it is self-evidently true doesn't qualify as evidence of the truth of your doctrine. . . ." It is clear from the context that Foster Z was using a form of the third definition from Webster's Third New International Dictionary when he wrote "dogma".

• No, it is not at all clear.
• Asserting that it is clear does not make it clear.
• That something can be used pejoratively does not ipso facto mean that it was.

2) RF, in Post 6532, wrote that "Dogma is not per se pejorative"...

Demonstrated true by your own definitions.

and "LDS doctrine is dogma by definition."

Demonstrated true by your own provided definition.

Both statements are reckless conjecture.

This does not even make sense.

In the first statement, RF found it necessary to insert the disclaimer per se to justify his claim. He was well aware of the negativity associated with dogma.

I recognized that it CAN be used pejoratively.

That something can be used pejoratively does not ipso fact mean that it was.

3) In my response, I indicated--by the use of a bold-faced "c" in citing the definitiion by Webster's Third New International Dictionary, that those oppossing me fully intended to use dogma pejoratively. They did so initially and have done so throughout this exchange. They have every right to do that, but no amount of spinning can disguise their intent.

Nonsense. You are being thin skinned. I've known Foster Zygote a long time and he is a very decent fellow. You came here citing dogma. It was, and is, by definition, dogma.

By your own dictionary definition Mormon doctrine IS dogma.