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Large Hadron Collider Question

Okay. The earth has been hit with cosmic-ray bursts that have exceeded the LHC's operating power-levels. As a result is unlikely to produce a black-hole.

Correction: unlikely to produce a stable black hole. Rapidly-decaying black holes might be comparatively common in cosmic rays (and also in LHC collisions), but their net effect would be "a somewhat unusual distribution of decay particles" rather than "destruction of the Earth".
 
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Okay. The earth has been hit with cosmic-ray bursts that have exceeded the LHC's operating power-levels. As a result is unlikely to produce a black-hole.

BTW: The LHC of many things is going to be used studying micro-black-holes right? What will their research entail?

I read a post on the LHC website saying that they would very much like to find micro black holes, because it would actually start to move physics passed the standard model and allow them to investigate quantum gravity. I don't think people think it is very likely, but if we are lucky it will produce black holes and end up being a very exciting time for physics.

Otherwise, I was under that impression that one of their main goals is to identify and measure the mass of the Higg's Boson. A particle that is commonly thought to exist, but that has never been seen. Although that might not happen either, as it might be too massive for the LHC to detect. The Higg's Boson is certainly the more likely discovery and its discovery would represent a verification of the standard model.

The cool thing about any major physics project like this is that it produces a tremendous amount of data. They have several different instruments at different locations around the ring that will be able to observe many different characteristics of the collisions. With all that data, particle physicists will be able to publish tons of papers and study numerous different topics. It's not like it has to study any particular thing.
 
Okay. The earth has been hit with cosmic-ray bursts that have exceeded the LHC's operating power-levels. As a result is unlikely to produce a black-hole.

BTW: The LHC of many things is going to be used studying micro-black-holes right? What will their research entail?

As far as I know there are no specific plans to study micro black holes. Through I'm sure there will be lots of people there keen to see evidence they might exist.
There are 4 detectors around LHC. ATLAS and CMS are the biggies. They'll be looking primarily for the Higgs Boson and (I think) supersymmetric particles. LHCb is designed for experiments studying CP violation in b mesons. ALICE is designed for the study of the quark-gluon plasma. The latter two will be taking a backseat I think in the first few years as finding the Higgs boson is the big priority.
 
Otherwise, I was under that impression that one of their main goals is to identify and measure the mass of the Higg's Boson. A particle that is commonly thought to exist, but that has never been seen. Although that might not happen either, as it might be too massive for the LHC to detect. The Higg's Boson is certainly the more likely discovery and its discovery would represent a verification of the standard model.

I may be wrong here... But I think there is a maximum limit to the Higgs' mass from theory. And that maximum limit is such that if it is not found at LHC then it probably doesn't exist.
Can anyone confirm/tell me I'm talking rubbish?
 
My apologies if this has already been stated in one of the other threads but wasn't the stable-strangelet problem the apocalyptic vision of choice for the LHC? I thought the wee black hole thing was the runner up here; or is it just that black holes are physic's most prominent boogie men?
 
Yes stranglets were the scary boo of choice, they are past the event horizon destroying the unseen unverse.

Apparently all the supernovae in the visible universe are not huge enough to make a stranglet.
 
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I may be wrong here... But I think there is a maximum limit to the Higgs' mass from theory. And that maximum limit is such that if it is not found at LHC then it probably doesn't exist.
Can anyone confirm/tell me I'm talking rubbish?

You may be right, I'm certainly not an expert in these things.
Any particle physicists want to chime in on this one?
 
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As far as I know there are no specific plans to study micro black holes. Through I'm sure there will be lots of people there keen to see evidence they might exist.

You mean there *never* have been observed any evidence of a micro-singularity in any of these powerful particle-accelerators? How do they know it will decay in a given amount of time for a given mass? How do they know the mass of these things won't "tug" on the walls of the particle accelerator pulling them in...

Do you think in their attempts to see if one might exist that they might try to deliberately create one?
 
You mean there *never* have been observed any evidence of a micro-singularity in any of these powerful particle-accelerators?
Not that I'm aware of.

How do they know it will decay in a given amount of time for a given mass?
Decays are usually random so I'm doubtful they could say that if a blackhole was formed it would decay precisely x amount of time after it was formed. They may be able to calculate a mean life or half-life based on the theory (does it count as a theory?) of Hawking radiation (about which I am not very well versed).

How do they know the mass of these things won't "tug" on the walls of the particle accelerator pulling them in...
Outside the event horizon of a blackhole a blackhole appears to behave pretty much classically. In terms of gravitational forces the walls of the LHC won't know the difference between a hypothetical spherical blackhole in the beampipe and a 1cm (or whatever) radius sphere of the same mass centred on the same point.

Do you think in their attempts to see if one might exist that they might try to deliberately create one?
The overwhelming priority for the LHC to begin with is the Higgs boson. Find enough evidence for that and they'll probably look for SUSY particles (if they haven't stumbled across them already). Who knows what they might do after that? This, however, will be years down the line and depends on what they accidentally discover in the meantime.
 
Tubbythin,

Then how do they know they won't create a stable black-hole if they don't know the decay rate? Also, if they do create one how do they know it will be still within the confines of the LHC's tunnels before decaying. If it goes outside that tunnel it will aggregate mass.
 
Tubbythin,

Then how do they know they won't create a stable black-hole if they don't know the decay rate? Also, if they do create one how do they know it will be still within the confines of the LHC's tunnels before decaying. If it goes outside that tunnel it will aggregate mass.

They can calculate the schwarzchild radius, which is very very small. So small that even if the black hole didn't decay or decayed very very slowly the probability of a collision with another particle would be incredibly small.

I read a calculation somewhere that said a single micro black hole probably wouldn't gobble any particles until after the end of life on earth.
 
You mean there *never* have been observed any evidence of a micro-singularity in any of these powerful particle-accelerators? How do they know it will decay in a given amount of time for a given mass? How do they know the mass of these things won't "tug" on the walls of the particle accelerator pulling them in...

Do you think in their attempts to see if one might exist that they might try to deliberately create one?

Black holes aren't destructive because of gross gravitational attraction; after all, all the gravitational force they have is the same as that of the mass that went into their making; say, the mass of two colliding protons, just as Tubbythin said above. They are rather more destructive because of their tidal effects, which tend to tear matter apart when it gets close to the event horizon. Tidal effects are dependent upon mass, but also inversely to the cube of distance (if I'm reading the equation in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force correctly). That means that a 2 proton mass black hole will not allow anything to stand in its way, but then solid matter at that dimension is mostly empty space anyway. Consider the typical explanation of that empty space: an atom of, say, iron, expanded to the size of a football stadium, with the electron shell extending (sort-of) out to the nose-bleed seating, the volume of the nucleus would be represented by a baseball on the 50 yard line. Mostly empty.

That is not the same things as saying they don't represent a danger. The problem is that if they exist and are in orbit within the earths radius, then they will occasionally rip through and accrete the odd particle or nucleus in their way, and thereby grow. If there is no counter-balancing evaporation, then, eventually, there could be problems, as the tidal forces get larger and extend further.

As an engineer I'm qualified to make that sort of napkin-analysis, but not much more. For detailed analysis I have to trust those that have more detailed knowledge. I am confident that they can be trusted in the main to provide a true answer about this. After all, they and their families will not escape the effects. It's also not like they've forgotten about the possibility; the controversy has seen to that, if it were a possibility. There are any number of science fiction stories based on this idea; I think in particular of James P. Hogan's "Thrice Upon a Time".

Before the first atomic blast, Oppenheimer and other scientists speculated that the extreme conditions inside the blast might ignite all matter, with some unfortunate consequences. This became less likely as their knowledge increased, right up until the blast. (See Richard Rhodes, "The Making of the Atomic Bomb")

Therefore, this sort of question asking is not in error or in any way out of place. It is, in fact, vital. But, you and I don't have the raw expertise to decide. Foolhardy? Perhaps, but during the cold war we lived with the possibility that one balmy person could end it all, and we elected paranoids like Nixon to see to it; and their side sported Brezhnev and Andropov. Now, that was taking a chance. No :) about it.
 
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Tubbythin,

Then how do they know they won't create a stable black-hole if they don't know the decay rate? Also, if they do create one how do they know it will be still within the confines of the LHC's tunnels before decaying. If it goes outside that tunnel it will aggregate mass.

Huh?
The mean-life is the reciprocal of the decay constant. Hence if they can calculate a mean-life they can calculate a decay rate.
Whether they can calculate it or not is pretty irrelevant anyway. As has been pointed out several times, if high energy proton-proton collisions created destructive blackholes it would have happened already in cosmic rays.
 

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