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Lambda-CDM theory - Woo or not?

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OK, so MM is frequently interpreting the arrows in the diagram from wikipedia as pressures. He's saying that the fact the arrow from inside points against the plate means this is a positive pressure. The fact that the arrow from outside pushes against the plate mean this is also a positive pressure.

I would argue that if these arrows were appropriately representative this is not an unwise conclusion.

Lets consider a box that's got a gas in it at some arbitrary pressure (like 1 atmospheric pressure), and which is sitting in an external gas at a higher pressure (say twice atmospheric pressure). Clearly the sides of the box will be experiencing an inward force. However, the pressure from the gas inside the box is positive, not negative even though the sides of the box are pushed together. Work is done by the outside gas against the internal gas to make the box smaller. The energy of the gas inside goes up as a result of this (only a tiny amount, of course).

This seems to be roughly how MM sees the Casimir system. If this were like the Casimir effect, then MM would be right to argue that the pressure is positive and not negative.

The force in the Casimir situation is not like this however. That wikipedia diagram with arrows is a cartoon and it is not quite representative of what is happening in the Casimir effect.

With the gaseous non-Casimir situation, the work done pushing the plates together is applied to the box and the gas inside. The energy inside the box goes up as that work is done.

With the Casimir effect this is not the case. The plates moving together reduces the energy inside the volume. Work is not done against the pressure between the plates.

The cartoon is just a cartoon. In the words of this rather nice post on the subject "Though this pictorial explanation looks very nice it certainly can't replace a sensible calculation." - I could not agree more.

It is not the case that there's two competing positive pressures as you would have from two gases at different (positive) pressures separated by some plate, or the energy would not work out as the quantum mechanics tells us - there's a reduction of energy between the plates as the plates draw closer and this simply is not consistent with the idea that there is a positive pressure between them.

Sorry Michael - you just need to let go of the idea that there's two competing positive pressures here. There isn't. It's a negative pressure.
 
Thanks Edd,

That is exactly the counter intuitive notion that is so confusing. Gravity as a 'negative' force. I would assume it applies to other attractive forces as well.

It is very counter intuitive when you eher it reffered to as 'negative energy'.

But if one understands that 'repulsive' energy is 'positive' then it becomes easier.
 
Uh, as the Magic 8-Ball on the shelf would say, "Yes, Definitely."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16903-new-cosmic-map-reveals-colossal-structures.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080923104410.htm


Simply amazing. Like any good creationist, you completely *IGNORED* the data you don't wish to address, and then have the nerve to accuse *me* of not addressing the questions and points. How transparent can you possibly be there Geemack? Care to deal with the fact that your beloved dogma thingy can't deal with the newer observations? What happened to that "prediction" of "homogeneous" mass distribution based on inflation? Did it just go totally up in smoke or what?
 
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Simply amazing. Like any good crackpot, you completely *IGNORED* the fact that this data just makes the void difficult to explain with the computer simulation.
In fact the newly found void is so large that it is difficult to fit into our present understanding of the universe on the largest scales. Computer simulations show that gravity causes galaxies and galaxy clusters to get closer together over time, with voids growing between the clusters.
But the finite time available since the big bang makes it difficult to explain a void as large as the one found in this survey (other researchers, however, say galaxy maps already hint at the existence of such large-scale structures).
"It's not easy to make voids that large in any of the current models of large scale structure formation," Huchra says.

Simply amazing. Like any good crackpot, you completely *IGNORED* the fact that this data
  1. Is a single statistical analysis and should be confirmed before treating is as fact.
  2. Just puts an upper limit on inflation. This will become a problem inflation when that upper limit is actually measured and rules out inflation.
P.S.
Outstanding questions for MM from me:
Originally Posted by Reality Check
First asked 26 March 2009
I know that these are absurdly simple questions that a high school student could answer but that should just make it easier for you :D.
Here is a simpler situation: Consider these 2 scenarios
  1. A force F pushes on a surface that has an area of A.
  2. A force F pulls on a surface that has an area of A.
What is the pressure in these 2 scenarios?
If you do not know what pressure is or cannot use the standard defeinition of pressure that then have a guess at:
Is the pressure positive or negative in each of the 2 scenerios?
Originally Posted by Reality Check
First asked 1 April 2009
Now prove your assertion (that the Casimir effect is air pressure) by showing the the air pressure between 2 parallel plates exerts a pressure that varies as the fourth power of the distance betwen the plates (as shown experimentally).
For a genius like you this should be simple. But given your track record with questions I will timestamp this question.

I will add the outstanding questions that other posters have asked:
Asked 2 April 2009 (and many times before)
  • What is your definition of pressure (citations please) that only allows pressure to be positive?
  • What is the error in the derivation of the pressure of the Casimir effect that leads to the pressure being negative?
  • And a bonus question: Why do scientists actually measure a negative pressure?
    Originally Posted by sol invictus
    Here's a paper measuring Casimir pressure. Note the sign of the result (see e.g. Figure 1), and the functional form (which shows that the pressure tends to minus infinity as the cavity shrinks - which in MM's world means the pressure outside must be +infinity).
 
Simply amazing. Like any good crackpot, you completely *IGNORED* the fact that this data just makes the void difficult to explain with the computer simulation.

Like any good "crackpot" you completely ignored the fact that the *only* way to "falsify" your belief system is to compare your "predictions" to actual "observation" and see how well your "predictions" worked out. In this case they *do not work out*. They work out *incorrectly* in fact. I am somehow now a "crackpot" for noting that your theory was *twice* in the last year alone "falsified" by "observation"?

Simply amazing. Like any good crackpot, you completely *IGNORED* the fact that this data

So let me get this straight...

Anyone who "questions" your dogma, or notes that is it was *falsified* by two different recent observations, not to mention the fact it is based on a *PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY* is somehow a "crackpot"? I guess since you guys can't damn me to hell, that's the best your creationist cult can do eh? :)

Is a single statistical analysis and should be confirmed before treating is as fact.

Did you "confirm or falsify" that "dark flow" observation yet? When shall I have waited long enough to notice that inflation theory has *never* actually correctly "predicted" anything?

Just puts an upper limit on inflation.

An upper limit on elves you mean? What "inflation"? Inflation only supposedly exists because your math models so elegantly described nature. Now we find out they are utterly falsified by more recent observations. Inflation is figment of your collective imagination. There is no such thing as "inflation". Guth actually "made it up" and it became "mathematically popular" with your crew. It turns out it was bogus nonsense from the start. It was "imaginative" mind you, but it is predicated on physical impossibility (negative pressure in a vacuum) and it is falsified by observation.

I know that these are absurdly simple questions that a high school student could answer

Like any good cult, instead of taking responsibility for demonstrating your claim, you continue to belittle and berate the "non believer" for not barking math at your command. Do you have any idea how ridiculous and petty you've become?

In spite of the visual description *and visual aid*, you still refuse to accept that the "pressure" takes place on *all* sides of *all* plates. There is no "negative pressure", only a "pressure difference".
300px-Casimir_plates.svg.png


The BIG blue arrows create "more" pressure than the LITTLE blue arrows. There is a "pressure difference" between them, just as there is a "pressure difference" between the top and bottom of a wing of an airplane in motion. There is a "pressure difference" but no "negative pressure" anywhere in either system. You can of course create a "mathematical model" of a "negative pressure between the plates or above the wing, but in physical "reality", their is nor form of "negative pressure" taking place. You guys still can't tell the difference between a "mathematical definition" and physical reality. It's sad to watch this sort of hard core denial, especially with a visual aid and everything. It's hard to watch this sort sort of hard core denial in action. Your dogma has been "falsified", you won't deal with it, so I'm a "crackpot" and it's all my fault that your math models didn't work because I can't do math. Is that about how your rationalization goes?
 
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Of course we have, as you should already know (i.e., comments on Magnetic Reconnection). But you have the peculiar habit of demanding "controlled laboratory experiments", and then summarily rejecting any experiment that does not agree with your own pre-conceived ideas, just as you have already rejected all of the controlled laboratory observations of magnetic reconnection. Not for any good reason, but just because you don't like them.

That's not actually 'true'. Even before posting to this particular board, I have seen mathematical descriptions of "magnetic reconnection" that were "ok" by me, but pseudonyms for "particle reconnection" or "circuit reconnection" as described by Birn, et all. As long as you are willing to admit these are interchangeable terms, I personally have no problem with the idea of 'magnetic reconnection'. If however you are claiming that there is a 'unique' form of energy exchange between these two "circuits' or these 'particle flows", then I will expect you demonstrate it somehow. I'm struggling personally to find any "difference" between what you are describing as "magnetic reconnection' and simple circuit reconnection in plasma.

Birkeland's experiments are irrelevant.

Boloney. How can the be "irrelevant" when parts of them (at least the aurora parts) have already been "accepted" by the mainstream? You could argue *some* of his experiments are irrelevant, but certainly not all of them.

They have nothing at all to do with the central issue, and they certainly have nothing at all to do with the sun.

I know that you believe this is true, but this is where you happen to be wrong, and on the wrong side of history. The 'central' issue is what emits those "particles" that show up in the aurora, and clearly that is the sun, just as Birkeland "predicted" in his models. You can't ignore history here Tim.

FYI, I've spoken with you long enough to know that on most topics your opinions are 'reasonable'. For whatever reasons, you and Don Scott seemed to have locked swords on the idea of "electricity" as it relates to solar activity. You *may* (I haven't followed it all) be correct about some of your criticisms of Scott's work, but I assure you that you are dead wrong on the overall application of Birkeland's work to solar physics. I suggest you personally spend more time on Birkeland's presentation and less on anyone else's presentations of this material. It's far more "professional" at every level IMO.

They don't reproduce any of the physical characteristics of the sun,

Except whole sphere solar wind, jets, loops, etc?

and the pictures you post don't even look like the sun, despite your strange claims that they do (in violation of the evidence of our own eyes).

I suppose this only demonstrates that we "see" only which we wish to see, and we do not see what we do not wish to see. I see loops in the solar atmosphere in almost every high energy solar image. I see loops in the atmosphere of Birkeland's sphere, and he wrote about them too, so obviously he *saw* them too. You don't see those loops?

You have in fact not one single "controlled laboratory experiment" of any kind, ever performed by anyone, anywhere, to objectively support anything you have ever said about the sun. We all know it. You are the only one so blind you can't see that even your own "experiments" are useless.

This is just pure denial on your part IMO. Birkeland produced real "experiments" with real "physical things" that had a real "physical effect" on his experiments. With these 'physical things" he produced aurora around spheres in a vacuum. He produced "jets" and "loops" and high speed solar wind emissions too, including pieces of the cathode itself and other charged particles. Your denial routine on this issue is simply absurd IMO. I think somewhere along the line you got your ego tied up in "debunking" an "electric sun" concept, but not just *one* concept, evidently *all* theories related to "electric suns". I think that a dangerous place to be from the perspective of history, particularly in light of more recent satellite data.

All you can do is subjectively and arbitrarily assume (for no good physical reason at all) that all of these experiments somehow magically apply to the sun. That's it.

It's not a form of "magic" Tim, it's a form of "physical experimentation". You can't honestly sit there and deny that Birkeland did get his sphere to emit "particles" of "every kind". You're simply "assuming" something *other than* the one force we KNOW for a fact can "cause" this effect did it. You can't adequate explain it, nor can your even differentiate "magnetic reconnection" from "circuit" or "particle" reconnection at the level of actual physics. What is "physically unique" about magnetic reconnection that is somehow different from the "circuit reconnection" that Birkeland used?

Absolutely not. It's the magnetic field that reconnects,

What "physically" (at the point of physical "reconnection") is reconnecting? Which of Maxwell's equations treat magnetic fields as individual 'lines' that can "reconnect" in some physical way?

and that forces any current flows to change, or "reconnect" if you wish.

How do you *know for a fact* that you don't have the cart before the horse? In other words, how do you know it's not just like an ordinary plasma filament in an ordinary plasma ball that simply "changes direction' and thereby changes the magnetic topology? How do you know it's not "electricity" doing the work?

The field changes first, and then the currents follow.

How do you know it works in *that* order when we know for a fact that the "current flow" in our atmosphere generates those strong "magnetic lines" we observe in lightning storms?

It would be the other way around if it was really "circuit reconnection".

What causes "lightning" on Earth Tim?

But since you summarily and arbitrarily reject all of the controlled laboratory experiments which prove magnetic reconnection beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's no surprise that you must
have "circuit reconnection" instead.

Like I said before, I'm struggling to see what distinguished it from ordinary "circuit reconnection" like an ordinary plasma ball. That first abstract from that first paper makes it entirely clear that the *electrons* are flowing between the two "circuits".
 
Its excellent to see that the only thing MM has to (allegedly) support his assertion is a picture from Wikipedia. I'm sure the world's cosmologists are quaking in their boots.
 
Its excellent to see that the only thing MM has to (allegedly) support his assertion is a picture from Wikipedia. I'm sure the world's cosmologists are quaking in their boots.


Why not? He overturned the entire science of solar physics with a couple satellite images he found on NASA's web site. Not a single mathematical calculation required. Nothing quantitative. No actual numbers necessary. That Nobel prize is waiting... just barely... out of... reach.
 
Like any good "crackpot" you completely ignored the fact that the *only* way to "falsify" your belief system is to compare your "predictions" to actual "observation" and see how well your "predictions" worked out. In this case they *do not work out*. They work out *incorrectly* in fact. I am somehow now a "crackpot" for noting that your theory was *twice* in the last year alone "falsified" by "observation"?
Is your mememory that short MM?
They do work out:
Prediction 1 = a pressure that has a negative value.
Observation 1 = a pressure that has a negative value.
Prediction 2 = a pressure that inversely varies as the fouurth power of the distance.
Observation 2 = a pressure that inversely varies as the fouurth power of the distance.

So let me get this straight...

Anyone who "questions" your dogma, or notes that is it was *falsified* by two different recent observations, not to mention the fact it is based on a *PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY* is somehow a "crackpot"? I guess since you guys can't damn me to hell, that's the best your creationist cult can do eh? :)
The crackpot here is someone who cannot open a textbook to read the definition of pressure. His name is Michael Mozina.

Did you "confirm or falsify" that "dark flow" observation yet? When shall I have waited long enough to notice that inflation theory has *never* actually correctly "predicted" anything?

Learn to read MM:
  • Dark flow has not been comfirmed or falsified.
  • The predictions of inflation have been confirmed.
An upper limit on elves you mean? What "inflation"? Inflation only supposedly exists because your math models so elegantly described nature. Now we find out they are utterly falsified by more recent observations. Inflation is figment of your collective imagination. There is no such thing as "inflation". Guth actually "made it up" and it became "mathematically popular" with your crew. It turns out it was bogus nonsense from the start. It was "imaginative" mind you, but it is predicated on physical impossibility (negative pressure in a vacuum) and it is falsified by observation.
Is there an MM parrot out there :D ?

quote=Michael Mozina;4598838]
Like any good cult, instead of taking responsibility for demonstrating your claim, you continue to belittle and berate the "non believer" for not barking math at your command. Do you have any idea how ridiculous and petty you've become?

In spite of the visual description *and visual aid*, you still refuse to accept that the "pressure" takes place on *all* sides of *all* plates. There is no "negative pressure", only a "pressure difference".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...simir_plates.svg/300px-Casimir_plates.svg.png

The BIG blue arrows create "more" pressure than the LITTLE blue arrows. There is a "pressure difference" between them, just as there is a "pressure difference" between the top and bottom of a wing of an airplane in motion. There is a "pressure difference" but no "negative pressure" anywhere in either system. You can of course create a "mathematical model" of a "negative pressure between the plates or above the wing, but in physical "reality", their is nor form of "negative pressure" taking place. You guys still can't tell the difference between a "mathematical definition" and physical reality. It's sad to watch this sort of hard core denial, especially with a visual aid and everything. It's hard to watch this sort sort of hard core denial in action. Your dogma has been "falsified", you won't deal with it, so I'm a "crackpot" and it's all my fault that your math models didn't work because I can't do math. Is that about how your rationalization goes?[/quote]
Yes there is a MM parrot :D!

Let see if you can understand a liite mathematics MM:
A is a number.
B is a amother number.
B is bigger than A.
Subtract B from A.
Guess what sign the result is?
 
High schools questions that Micheal Mozina cannot answer

Oops:
Missed the now daily demonstration of Micheal Mozina's ignorance of basic physics :D.

Outstanding questions for MM from me:
Originally Posted by Reality Check
First asked 26 March 2009
I know that these are absurdly simple questions that a high school student could answer but that should just make it easier for you :biggrin:.
Here is a simpler situation: Consider these 2 scenarios
  1. A force F pushes on a surface that has an area of A.
  2. A force F pulls on a surface that has an area of A.
What is the pressure in these 2 scenarios?
If you do not know what pressure is or cannot use the standard defeinition of pressure that then have a guess at:
Is the pressure positive or negative in each of the 2 scenerios?
Originally Posted by Reality Check
First asked 1 April 2009
Now prove your assertion (that the Casimir effect is air pressure) by showing the the air pressure between 2 parallel plates exerts a pressure that varies as the fourth power of the distance betwen the plates (as shown experimentally).
For a genius like you this should be simple. But given your track record with questions I will timestamp this question.

I will add the outstanding questions that other posters have asked:
Asked 2 April 2009 (and many times before)
  • What is your definition of pressure (citations please) that only allows pressure to be positive?
  • What is the error in the derivation of the pressure of the Casimir effect that leads to the pressure being negative?
  • And a bonus question: Why do scientists actually measure a negative pressure?
    Originally Posted by sol invictus
    Here's a paper measuring Casimir pressure. Note the sign of the result (see e.g. Figure 1), and the functional form (which shows that the pressure tends to minus infinity as the cavity shrinks - which in MM's world means the pressure outside must be +infinity).
 
Its excellent to see that the only thing MM has to (allegedly) support his assertion is a picture from Wikipedia. I'm sure the world's cosmologists are quaking in their boots.

Er, ya, experimental verification of repulsion as well as attraction, and other verbal descriptions from anyone who knows anything about QM....

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/32380

The quantum Casimir effect comes about because a vacuum always contains fluctuating electromagnetic fields. Normally these fluctuations are roughly the same everywhere, but two close conducting surfaces set “boundary conditions” that limit the number of allowed field frequencies between them. Only waves that can fit multiples of half a wavelength between the surfaces resonate, leaving non-resonating frequencies suppressed. The result is that the total field inside a gap between conductors cannot produce enough pressure to match that from outside, so the surfaces are pushed together.

Notice how he describes the inside gap having "pressure" that does not match the pressure from the outside and therefore the plates are "pushed together"? Did Michael Mozina write that science article too?
 
Electricity, a known force of nature?

Simple question for MM, in several parts.

Yes or no answer first, then elaboration if you so desire, please.

Is "electricity" a known force of nature?

Is "magnetism" a known force of nature?

Is "electromagnetism" a known force of nature?

Is the "electroweak interaction" a known force of nature?
 
Simple question for MM, in several parts.

Yes or no answer first, then elaboration if you so desire, please.

Since you *REFUSE* to answer my questions about your personal beliefs(like what got your party started in the absence of inflation), the size of the object before 'expansion', etc, why should I feel compelled to answer any of your questions?
 
In spite of the visual description *and visual aid*, you still refuse to accept that the "pressure" takes place on *all* sides of *all* plates. There is no "negative pressure", only a "pressure difference".
[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Casimir_plates.svg/300px-Casimir_plates.svg.png[/qimg]

The BIG blue arrows create "more" pressure than the LITTLE blue arrows. There is a "pressure difference" between them, just as there is a "pressure difference" between the top and bottom of a wing of an airplane in motion. There is a "pressure difference" but no "negative pressure" anywhere in either system. You can of course create a "mathematical model" of a "negative pressure between the plates or above the wing, but in physical "reality", their is nor form of "negative pressure" taking place. You guys still can't tell the difference between a "mathematical definition" and physical reality. It's sad to watch this sort of hard core denial, especially with a visual aid and everything. It's hard to watch this sort sort of hard core denial in action. Your dogma has been "falsified", you won't deal with it, so I'm a "crackpot" and it's all my fault that your math models didn't work because I can't do math. Is that about how your rationalization goes?

Michael, please see my earlier post. That image is little more than a cartoon. Those blue arrows are not really a good representation of the pressure.

You cannot do quantum mechanics with cartoons.






Unless you're Richard Feynman.
 
Let see if you can understand a liite mathematics MM:
A is a number.
B is a amother number.
B is bigger than A.
Subtract B from A.
Guess what sign the result is?

You know, the funny part of this statement is that you refuse to acknowledge that *both of your starting numbers (A and B) are each positive numbers*, and all you're describing is the "relative difference between these two positive numbers". :) In the visual aid, that means B is the positive outside pressure, and A is the positive inside pressure, and there is simply a difference between them. The same is true in the wing pressure scenario, only B) would be the pressure under the wing, and A) would be the positive pressure on the top of the wing, and your math formula represents the difference between them. :) How can you not "get it"?
 
Michael, please see my earlier post. That image is little more than a cartoon. Those blue arrows are not really a good representation of the pressure.

Yes, they are.
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/32380

The quantum Casimir effect comes about because a vacuum always contains fluctuating electromagnetic fields. Normally these fluctuations are roughly the same everywhere, but two close conducting surfaces set “boundary conditions” that limit the number of allowed field frequencies between them. Only waves that can fit multiples of half a wavelength between the surfaces resonate, leaving non-resonating frequencies suppressed. The result is that the total field inside a gap between conductors cannot produce enough pressure to match that from outside, so the surfaces are pushed together.
 
Let see if you can understand a liite mathematics MM:
A is a number.
B is a amother number.
B is bigger than A.
Subtract B from A.
Guess what sign the result is?


They say this cat B is a bad mother
Shut your mouth
But I'm talkin' 'bout B
Then we can dig it

(Apologies to the memory of Issac Hayes)(and to RC!)
 
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