Kyusho/Tuite Application

[crimresearch]

"For those of you unaware, or in some cases, defecient in reading comprehension, I run a website devoted to exposing fraud in the martial arts."

I'm guessing that he means 'deficient' in reading comprehension...

As far as the Bullshido site, they may claim to be devoted to exposing fraud, but their methods of doing so appear to be limited to anecdotal claims, and a few backyard matches, rather
than through critical analysis or scientific research.

There is a little bit more to exposing martial arts fraud than debating opinions and issuing challenges.
If won/loss records were of any use, then the police and military would be hiring people like Mike Tyson and Frank Shamrock to design their combative training...and guess what? They aren't impressed by who won what challenge match. It simply isn't useful in the real world of use of force...replicable knowledge is, and so far, I'm not seeing any coming form the BS camp.

 

[Phrost]

"For those of you unaware, or in some cases, defecient in reading comprehension, I run a website devoted to exposing fraud in the martial arts."

I'm guessing that he means 'deficient' in reading comprehension...

As far as the Bullshido site, they may claim to be devoted to exposing fraud, but their methods of doing so appear to be limited to anecdotal claims, and a few backyard matches, rather
than through critical analysis or scientific research.

There is a little bit more to exposing martial arts fraud than debating opinions and issuing challenges.
If won/loss records were of any use, then the police and military would be hiring people like Mike Tyson and Frank Shamrock to design their combative training...and guess what? They aren't impressed by who won what challenge match. It simply isn't useful in the real world of use of force...replicable knowledge is, and so far, I'm not seeing any coming form the BS camp.

Like I said, I do not wish to derail this discussion any further.

I'd like to invite you to discuss your criticisms of how we do things over at our site, with our members. While we do have at least one scientist, the majority of the members are simply martial artists. Your insights would be valueable.

 

[robbersdog]

Like I said, I do not wish to derail this discussion any further.

I'd like to invite you to discuss your criticisms of how we do things over at our site, with our members. While we do have at least one scientist, the majority of the members are simply martial artists. Your insights would be valueable.

Ok, here goes. The whole way the JREF tests are arranged and conducted tries to remove as much 'squirming' room as possible. It's only through careful planning, on the part of everyone that such a test becomes meaningful.

For example: when testing dowsers, the claimant is able to test the are being used for the test to see if there are any other things there which could influence the test. If they don't like something, it is removed. If they can't get happy in the test are, then it is moved (within reason and expense). The whole thing is designed to remove as much outside influence as possible so that the basic claim can be tested, and no-one can claim that the results were effected by anything out of their control.

Unless this is done very carefully, the test becomes irrelevent. If you were to beat GS in a match, what exactly would that prove? It would prove that you are a more effective fighter, but nothing more. It would show nothing about the light touch claim. If GS were the tipical woo-woo he could then go away and moan about the time the place, the way you fought, etc. I would assume from what you say that you would intend to not let GS get in a position to be able to use the light touch KO. Without being able to use it, how can you prove it wrong?

This discussion is becoming more about the need for scientific method than the claim itself, but I feel this is a relevent subject for the forum. For one thing, GS would have to quantify 'light'. Without knowing exactly what is meant by this, we have nothing to test. Then we have to show that this effect can't be explained by current scientific knowledge and experience.

Just being able to beat someone up doesn't show their methods to be invalid, only that they are invalid against you. If being beaten invalidates a system, what happens when I pop a cap in your ass? You're beaten, so therefore your system is invalid. Doesn't work that way, does it.

There needs to be control in the test and you hitting the claimant removes an awfull lot of that control.

Phrost, do you see what we're trying to do here? It would appear you feel quite the same way about the claim being made as I do. We're on the same side! The reason there are so few people who ever get tested is because this test is unwinnable unless you are for real. There's no point even trying because you know there is hardly any wriggle room for excuses. (Although you wouldn't think this to see the aftermath of some of the tests).

We need to deal with as specific a claim as possible. If you try to alter the claim, you give the applicant the perfect excuse. 'Well, that's not really what I said I could do anyway. . .'

I'm interested to know what you think about this, that we're not against you, we just have different methods.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I DO NOT believe that MMA matches bear any resemlance to what happens when you are attacked on the street or when working the door.

I have yet to see people rolling around on concrete or bumpy surfaces in fights in real life, even though MMA techniques are supposedly more realistic and for the 'street'. I haven't had much exposure though, so maybe such ground techniques really do occur more than standing and punching and kicking in real fights.

In the end, ground techniques seem to work fine, except when the person you are fighting has one or more buddies there to stomp you down while you are on the ground.

 

[Phrost]

I'm interested to know what you think about this, that we're not against you, we just have different methods.

I see completely what you're trying to do, and I agree with it. I made the mistake of bringing up a test that didn't deal with whether or not his claims could work in an ideal situation for him, but in a more realistic environment.

Contrary to the claims often made by the detractors of mixed martial arts competitors, it is the single best way to determine whether or not an art is useful against a single person, giving considerations to the safety of those engaging in the match.

Regardless, I fully support the JREF's testing methods to determine whether this person's concepts of a para-biological system of the human body can allow one to be rendered unconscious through light contact to certain parts of the body.

Again, I'd like to get back to shining the spotlight on GS's claims. He needs to respond with what specific actions he intends to take to render someone unconscious with his alleged ability.

I suspect that now there are a few martial artists here, he'll refrain from going into detail on his techniques so as not to open himself to criticism from his peers.

 

[thaiboxerken]

TBK, I'm suprised you have supported this. You're not helping your cause. You seem to want to test GS scientifically, then go and support someone who is not interested in this at all. Make your mind up.

What?! You mean he can't do both? He didn't seem to do the JREF challenge..so, I thought maybe he'd do some kind of challenge.

I DO believe that I can do these KO's with light force*.

Whether or not this is a paranormal claim will rest on what GS will define as "light force".

 

[robbersdog]

I see completely what you're trying to do, and I agree with it. I made the mistake of bringing up a test that didn't deal with whether or not his claims could work in an ideal situation for him, but in a more realistic environment.

Contrary to the claims often made by the detractors of mixed martial arts competitors, it is the single best way to determine whether or not an art is useful against a single person, giving considerations to the safety of those engaging in the match.

Regardless, I fully support the JREF's testing methods to determine whether this person's concepts of a para-biological system of the human body can allow one to be rendered unconscious through light contact to certain parts of the body.

Again, I'd like to get back to shining the spotlight on GS's claims. He needs to respond with what specific actions he intends to take to render someone unconscious with his alleged ability.

I suspect that now there are a few martial artists here, he'll refrain from going into detail on his techniques so as not to open himself to criticism from his peers.

Thank you Phrost. I take back my earlier comments about you.

I agree with what you say, let's get back to the original claim and see what GS has to say.

 

[LeFevre]

I have yet to see people rolling around on concrete or bumpy surfaces in fights in real life, even though MMA techniques are supposedly more realistic and for the 'street'. I haven't had much exposure though, so maybe such ground techniques really do occur more than standing and punching and kicking in real fights.

In the end, ground techniques seem to work fine, except when the person you are fighting has one or more buddies there to stomp you down while you are on the ground. [/B]

We must hang around different crowds. I rarely see a street fight last over, say, 10 seconds on their feet. Its a bunch of smack talk or a cheap shot to start it off, followed by wild haymakers, then rolling around on the ground.

It's most always more fun when both parties have been drinking, to watch I mean.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I must hang out with the same crowd, LeFevre. Admittedly, the ground is not a good place to fight, especially if outnumbered. I think that to prevent getting taken to the ground, one probably needs to understand how to do takedowns and defend against them.

Hey, I have a claim.. I can use light-force with a crowbar to KO people.

 

[GroundStrength]

I'm taking this to a moderated thread since, there are a few who can't get fighting off their brains. Like I said I am considering the 'match' with Phrost but that is totally different than testing the claim.

I would really like to have help from this group in this matter. I really want to test this stuff. So I'll send a request for the moderated thread.

 

[Phrost]

I'm taking this to a moderated thread since, there are a few who can't get fighting off their brains. Like I said I am considering the 'match' with Phrost but that is totally different than testing the claim.

I would really like to have help from this group in this matter. I really want to test this stuff. So I'll send a request for the moderated thread.

What justification would you have for doing this, now that we've all agreed to focus on the subject of testing your claims?

Could it be that you don't want to deal with criticism from your true peers: martial artists, and would prefer to be tested by those who aren't as knowledgeable on martial arts techniques?

 

[GroundStrength]

What justification would you have for doing this, now that we've all agreed to focus on the subject of testing your claims?

Why not? The moderated thread WILL stay on topic.

Could it be that you don't want to deal with criticism from your true peers: martial artists, and would prefer to be tested by those who aren't as knowledgeable on martial arts techniques?

If I am wanting someone to validate my techniques then I will go to a martial artist whom I respect not an internet forum. Knowledge of martial arts is not a pre-requisite to participating in this thread.

This is about my application and testing for the JREF million. The fact that I am a martial artist is irrelevant.

Could it be that you are too ignorant to understand this?

Scott

 

[robbersdog]

What justification would you have for doing this, now that we've all agreed to focus on the subject of testing your claims?

Could it be that you don't want to deal with criticism from your true peers: martial artists, and would prefer to be tested by those who aren't as knowledgeable on martial arts techniques?

Read the thread. You and I have settled our differences (I hope) and are moving on to the original subject. However there are others here who don't seem to want that.

In his defence I must say that GS isn't backing out of a discussion, he's just taking the discussion to a place where it can't get railroaded off on a tangent. If anything, this means it would be a lot harder for him not to answer the real questions and a lot easier for us to get to the bottom of the matter.

Just look through the thread. It was never about fighting, just about a specific KO claim. However, have a look at how many of the posts are about fighting and other systems. All these are irrelevent, and detract from the original claim and the discussions of it.

As for being tested by those knowledgable on martial arts techniques, your input into this is very valuable. I have a limited knowledge of martial arts but probably know more than many (my brother is a Ju Jitsu purple belt and my mother is a Tae Kwon Do black belt). I'm sure there are a lot of valid points you could make, which I would miss, but you must stay on subject.

Everyone has an input, especially GS. Try to ask valid questions rather than assuming and criticising the man behind the claim. It's the claim we're interested in. GS could be a mass murderer or have a yellow streak a mile long, but that doesn't effect the claim. Also, he doesn't have to take your challenge to win the million. It's the million dollar challenge we're here to discuss, so like I said, lets stay on topic.

Just for the record, I'm on no-ones side here. I will support whoever I think is right. This post is not an attack, and I hope it's not taken that way.

 

[crimresearch]

Broken record...this thread isn't about *delivering* the proposed technique, it is about the effects AFTER someone receives it..those who don't get that, are in a position similar to saying that vaccines don't work, because they can kick the ass of any lab coat wearing geek who tries to stick them with a needle.

If you go over to the Deadly Bullshido Stylists's forum, you will see that they have inflated GS's claim into a 'No Touch' distant knockout, and are ridiculing the idea that anyone should actually try to understand scientific or medical explanations...(they do have much cooler avatars than we do though).

Interesting that the idea of having this purported effect tested under rigorous conditions, and/or discussed in a troll free forum, should engender such strong reactions though...again, makes you go 'Hmmm'...or maybe I'm just too skeptical?

 

[Phrost]

If you go over to the Deadly Bullshido Stylists's forum, you will see that they have inflated GS's claim into a 'No Touch' distant knockout, and are ridiculing the idea that anyone should actually try to understand scientific or medical explanations...(they do have much cooler avatars than we do though).

Please provide me an example of this, the thread has fallen off the main page and I haven't seen any activity in the last day or so.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'they have inflated GS's claim' as the claim is presented as a link directly to this discussion. Perhaps you either misread what was written, or are reading an unrelated thread.

Regardless, I'd like an answer on my question about the technique GS is planning on using, and a detailed description of the steps required to perform it. I think that's a fair question, and it goes towards establishing a scientific testing procedure. Wouldn't you agree?

There are many techniques in the martial arts that can render one unconscious. The intent is to establish something paranormal about what GS claims his abilities can do.

What's the harm in answering here? At the very least, if/when he gets his moderated thread, he can simply copy and paste his response into it.

Answer the question.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Let's stay on topic then. WTF is "light force", in accordance to GS? Where will this "light force" be applied. What constitutes a KO, according to GS?

 

[GroundStrength]

This will be my last post in this thread. I have PM'd Upchurch and he has agreed to moderate the thread for us in the Critical Thinking forum.

You two just keep kicking around the turds in this sandbox.

 

[T'ai Chi]

We must hang around different crowds. I rarely see a street fight last over, say, 10 seconds on their feet. Its a bunch of smack talk or a cheap shot to start it off, followed by wild haymakers, then rolling around on the ground.

It's most always more fun when both parties have been drinking, to watch I mean.

Well that's why. I have enough martial artist sense to leave parties before stuff like that happens, and never go to 'rough' bars for the same reason. Avoiding fights should be part of training, right? MA has to be part of life to be useful.

 

[Phrost]

You two just keep kicking around the turds in this sandbox.

You're such a classy guy GS.

I'm still going to ask you that question in the moderated thread, so you can't evade it forever.

 

[apoger]

This will be my last post in this thread. I have PM'd Upchurch and he has agreed to moderate the thread for us in the Critical Thinking forum.

Might I suggest that you start the thread with a simple and clear definition of what you claim, and an explanation as to why it's a claim of paranormal ability. Otherwise you will get hammered in exactly the same way as you did in the other forums.