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Kyusho/Tuite Application

To DVFinn and Robbersdog,

As always rational discussion is welcome. I have no idea what the outcome of the application will be but, I am up for a go at it anyway.


Originally Posted by Graham
What I mean is, whilst the TCM model and similar might provide useful metaphors for bodily functions (i.e. by allowing you to visualise what you are trying to do) they do not actually explain what is going on - they are not literally true.
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I think you have mistunderstood me. I have never said I think that there are actually physical things called meridians running thru the body carrying chi to and fro. I said that the TCM model (points, five-element theory, yin/yang theory, etc..) is a very easy way to teach how to attack the body with minimum effort (light force) for maximum results (ko's and such).



Now for a little irrational discussion with a$$-clown thaiboxerken

I've noticed how the claim has changed from touch-KO's to "combination of light force and light grappling".
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I've noticed how you never seem to be able to stay on subject and constantly try to confuse the issues...a$$-clown.

What's with this 5 element crap? It means nothing to those that don't understand your metaphor.
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I'm sorry did we go too fast you for wittle kenny....:(


How can you really expect Randi to accept your challenge if you aren't going to tell anyone what you are actually trying to do?
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That's the great thing a$$-c...oh I mean tbk, I only have to spell it out in the application (which) I have done. Your inability to understand what I am talking about doesn't effect me or my application in the slightest.

Do you really think Randi is going to let you use "any" target? What are you going to call "minimal force". I remember hearing of Dillman giving a "light force" KO to someone's neck, his victim had a bruise that was so blue, it looked black.
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Strawman

What's next, are you going to claim you can knock someone out by lightly tapping them with a baseball bat?
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Strawman
 
GroundStrength said:
Is this all I need to provide (with the exception of the notarization and signature)? All help welcome.
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thaiboxerken said:
How can you really expect Randi to accept your challenge if you aren't going to tell anyone what you are actually trying to do?
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(and others saying they don't understand what you are talking about)
GroundStrength said:
I only have to spell it out in the application (which) I have done. Your inability to understand what I am talking about doesn't effect me or my application in the slightest.
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Let me get this straight...
You asked for comments on your application.
Several people say they can't understand what you are talking about.
You say their comments mean nothing.

Nice job!
 
I believe I understand the application, but i do think it is flawed. The basic failing is that GroudStrength is going to show that a theory fits the evidence, not that it is supported by the evidence. I don't think it has ever been in doubt that almost all supernatural explainations can be shown to fit the evidence (although most of the time, this depends on how the evidence is interpreted). However, in all cases so far, there has been a much more probable, real world explaination which is repeatable, or the evidence is shown to be incorrect.

I think GroundStrength has mis-interpreted Mr. Randi as to what he means by saying the TCM model is invalid. I think that it's the dependance on Chi which is the problem. Even if you can show the effect of it in combat, unless you can prove that you are moving or influencing or in any way showing the existance of Chi, then the whole TCM explaination kinda falls apart.

I don't think this is going to go very far.
 
I think it's important to remember that Randi isn't interested in explanations of how or why the paranormal powers work, only that they do work.

The difficulty will be in determining that this is somehow a paranormal or "super" power in order to qualify for the test. Another caveat, tests are usually not allowed that will cause harm to another person, or the applicant himself.
 
Now for a little irrational discussion with a$$-clown thaiboxerken

Nothing like a little ad-hom to try an sway people into thinking my points aren't valid. However, this is a skeptic forum so the people here don't generally fall for this.


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I've noticed how the claim has changed from touch-KO's to "combination of light force and light grappling".
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I've noticed how you never seem to be able to stay on subject and constantly try to confuse the issues...a$$-clown.

You haven't addressed my point here at all. Your claim has changed greatly from the "i can KO people with a touch" to "a light strike using grappling techniques also". Do you deny that you have done this? I am staying on subject real well here, you claimed that these atemi points can be activated by mere touch to cause KO's and that your wife can do it as well. Now, it's not just touching you are talking about, but 5 elements and grappling. Like many believers, your claims are dynamic making it very hard to test.


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What's with this 5 element crap? It means nothing to those that don't understand your metaphor.
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I'm sorry did we go too fast you for wittle kenny....

Not only for me, but for others here. You mention this five element model, but the reality is that it's crap. The "theory" behind your super death touch matters not to us, it's whether or not you can do it.


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How can you really expect Randi to accept your challenge if you aren't going to tell anyone what you are actually trying to do?
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That's the great thing a$$-c...oh I mean tbk, I only have to spell it out in the application (which) I have done. Your inability to understand what I am talking about doesn't effect me or my application in the slightest.

You asked for opinions on your applications. If you don't want criticism, don't ask for it. Has Randi responded yet? I wonder if anyone but you knows what you are claiming do be able to do in your application. You seem to forget that you need to make a testable claim, not just a general "i use chi to whoop ass" claim.


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Do you really think Randi is going to let you use "any" target? What are you going to call "minimal force". I remember hearing of Dillman giving a "light force" KO to someone's neck, his victim had a bruise that was so blue, it looked black.
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Strawman

I don't think you understand what "strawman" means. I am not setting up an argument for you. I am simply giving an example of what claimants like you say and do. Dillman is one of the "touch KO" people, yet Dillman's "touches" are simply strikes.


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What's next, are you going to claim you can knock someone out by lightly tapping them with a baseball bat?
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Strawman

Not a strawman, but an analogy based on your vague claims. Why is it that you can't simply be specific with your claim and give Randi something to test?

Can you or your wife knock a person out by touch alone?

I doubt it.
 
GroundStrength said:


I think you have mistunderstood me. I have never said I think that there are actually physical things called meridians running thru the body carrying chi to and fro. I said that the TCM model (points, five-element theory, yin/yang theory, etc..) is a very easy way to teach how to attack the body with minimum effort (light force) for maximum results (ko's and such).
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Sorry, but if that is the case then there's nothing paranormal going on, is there?

All you are demonstrating is an effective training technique.

Graham
 
Graham said:


Sorry, but if that is the case then there's nothing paranormal going on, is there?

All you are demonstrating is an effective training technique.

Graham
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TKO!
 
I don't lnow much about this spesific example but many systems contain valid information in an invalid system. For example homeopathy contains the information that it is often better to do nothing that try and treat people with 200 year old medcines. The system behind this is invalid.

I suspect that some fighting systems may be simular. They conatain the information about really bad places to get hit but the system behind this is incorect. Quite a few types of tradtional medcine are like this they contain a few chemicals that work but the reasons given for why they work are incorrect.

I am of course extreamly interest to see if GroundStrength's tenques do work (partly so that I can show that my fighting sytem is even more valid ie run as fast as posible:) )
 
"...So that I can show that my fighting sytem is even more valid ie run as fast as posible..."

Ah yes...the Roman art of foot fighting...track. :bricks:

Rather than pull this down by debate tactics (such as pretending that the definition of 'touch' is fixed at the minimal level, and labelling anything else as allowing for being hit in the head with a baseball bat), it might be useful to tease out the definitions and conditions, and see what can rightly be considered paranormal about GS's proposal, and what results can be deemed acceptable...without that much as a starting point, I don't see the utility of criticisms.

Paul
 
crimresearch said:
Rather than pull this down by debate tactics (such as pretending that the definition of 'touch' is fixed at the minimal level, and labelling anything else as allowing for being hit in the head with a baseball bat), it might be useful to tease out the definitions and conditions, and see what can rightly be considered paranormal about GS's proposal, and what results can be deemed acceptable...without that much as a starting point, I don't see the utility of criticisms.

Paul
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Assume you could consult medical experts and get a precise definition of what would constitute a paranormal level of force for a knockout (even in terms of Newtons). How would you accurately measure the force of the attack without interfering? Skilled people can exert a lot of force without appearing to do so. Isn't Geller often credited with having very strong hands?
 
Groundstrength said that light touches is all it takes, I'd like to see that.
 
So.. anyway.......... when will we get to see your superpower.. or even a specific, testable claim?
 
TheBoyPaj said:
Assume you could consult medical experts and get a precise definition of what would constitute a paranormal level of force for a knockout (even in terms of Newtons). How would you accurately measure the force of the attack without interfering? Skilled people can exert a lot of force without appearing to do so. Isn't Geller often credited with having very strong hands?
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You measure the force their feet exert on the floor. Equal and opposite forces.
 
No. Just nursing some broken ribs that won't seem to heal. Thanks for the reminder TBK can't wait to get things going.
 
GroundStrength said:
No. Just nursing some broken ribs that won't seem to heal. Thanks for the reminder TBK can't wait to get things going.
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I'm still wondering what "thing" you are specifically going to do.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:


You measure the force their feet exert on the floor. Equal and opposite forces.
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In a lot of techniques, the reaction is against the mass of the body, or a reactionary movement, rather than through the feet. If you were really good you could punch someone without putting any extra force through your feet.
 
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