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Kyusho/Tuite Application

GroundStrength

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Apr 22, 2003
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Okay I am not clear on what constitutes an application (there is just a list of rules on the webpage).

and here they are
From the JREF Website
1. Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules.
2. Only an actual performance of the stated nature and scope, within the agreed-upon limits, will be accepted. Anecdotal accounts of previous events are not accepted or considered. We consult competent statisticians when an evaluation of the results, or experiment design, is required. We have no interest in theories or explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if you provide us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded.
3. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by JREF in any way that Mr. Randi may choose.
4. No part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the agreement of all parties concerned. JR may be present at some preliminary or formal tests, but will not interact with the materials used.
5. In all cases, applicant will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the preliminary test.
6. All expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.
7. When entering into this challenge, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, against any persons peripherally involved, and against the James Randi Educational Foundation, as far as this may be done by established statutes. This applies to injury, accident, or any other damage of a physical or emotional nature, and/or financial, or professional, loss or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize.
8. At the formal test, in advance, an independent person will be placed in charge of a personal check from James Randi for US$10,000. In the event that the claimant is successful under the agreed terms and conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of US$1,000,000. One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account," as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail.
9. Copies of this form are available free of charge to any person who sends the required SSAE, marked on the outside, "Challenge Application," requesting it, or it can be downloaded from the Internet, at www.randi.org/research/challenge.html
10. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, and not on behalf of any other person, agency or organization, though others may become involved in the examination of claims, others may add their reward money to the total in certain circumstances, and the implementation and management of the challenge will be carried out by James Randi via the James Randi Educational Foundation. JREF will not entertain any demand that the prize money be deposited in escrow, displayed in cash, or otherwise produced in advance of the test being performed. JREF will not cater to such vanities.
11. This offer is open to any and all persons, in any part of the world, regardless of gender, race, educational background, etc., and will continue in effect until the prize is awarded. Upon the death of James Randi, the administration of the prize will pass into other hands, and it is intended that it continue in force.
12. EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER. This form must be accompanied by a brief, two-paragraph description of what will constitute the demonstration. PLEASE: Do not burden us with theories, philosophical observations, previous examples, or other comments! We are only interested in an actual demonstration.


Claimed Abilty:
I state for the record that by using the TCM (traditional chinese medicine) model for point selection I can render a person unconscious through the combination of tuite jutsu(pressure point grappling) and kyusho jutsu(pressure point striking). The attempted KO will use minimal force on both the grappling and striking components.

Demonstration:
Using the TCM model for point selection, points will be selected that follow the model for best effect. Then I will place the subject(s) in a grappling technique (using the pre-selected points) and then a light-force strike will be issued to the final point(s). The subject should lost consciousness and fall into the arms of two (2) catchers behind him.


Is this all I need to provide (with the exception of the notarization and signature)?

All help welcome.
 
I think you need to specify that you'll be working exclusively on the subject's arm.

There may be more that you need, but the arm thing is the important one that I wanted to mention.
 
Some random thoughts on the matter:

You might want to define "minimal force." I'm not sure how you measure this. Slugging someone in the jaw can knock them out under the right circumstances, but that's not supernatural.

You probably also need to specify where the points you're going to hit are. A swift boot to the groin can induce unconsciousness, but I don't think that's paranormal. ;)

I'm also not sure about your test subjects. For obvious reasons they can't be people affiliated with you, and I'm not sure how many people are going to stand there and let you hit them, but I suspect the JREF could find some people. :)

Do the people end up unconscious, or just fall down? How do you determine this? How long are they out for? I'm just thinking that knocking someone down by hitting them isn't exactly unusual, so how do you determine that it's beyond what anybody can do?

Repeatability is also an issue. Does it work every time, 1 time in 10, etc.

The whole proceeding should be videotaped from multiple angles with decent equipment (not like YB, for instance).

Just my 2 cents, I'm not actually involved in any of the testing. :)
 
bignickel said:
I think you need to specify that you'll be working exclusively on the subject's arm.

There may be more that you need, but the arm thing is the important one that I wanted to mention.

I'm not sure that the arm will be the only one used. Heck, it's a million dollars. I want to make sure that the I all choices (targets) available. However I do understand about having the head in general as a target.
 
Claimed Abilty:
I state for the record that by using the TCM (traditional chinese medicine) model for point selection I can render a person unconscious through the combination of tuite jutsu(pressure point grappling) and kyusho jutsu(pressure point striking). The attempted KO will use minimal force on both the grappling and striking components.

The difficulty here is in seperating a supernatural ability from a mundane one. There's nothing special about rendering a person unconscious with pressure or with a strike. You referenced traditional chinese medicine. Most such systems embrace a vital energy or chi type concept. If you could demonstrate that you were rendering a person unconscious by manipulating or impedeing this alleged energy flow then you would have a valid claim. If, on the other hand, you are placing pressure on a major artery and cutting off blood flow to the brain, compressing the diaphragm to stop breathink, or applying pressure to a nerve cluster so that a person passes out from pain, then you have done nothing supernatural.

The key to your claim is showing that what you do does not work by any of the conventional and understood methods. I would think that you would be required to describe before hand exactly what you were going to do and how so that it can be evaluated in references to mundane factors like circulation.

All the JREF tests are developed between both parties, so they and you get to agree upon the exact methods prior to the test.
 
Since your original post specified 'arm-only', I suggest a reading of Aoidoi's post.

Any application that involve strikes to the head, torso, or groin will be ruled straight out I think.
 
E-mail Correspondance with JREF
From: "Linda" <linda@randi.org> Add to Address Book
To: "Scott Watkins" <xingyiquan2003@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Kyusho Jutsu and Light Force KO's
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:25:08 -0500




That should do it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Watkins [mailto:xingyiquan2003@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:07 PM
To: linda@randi.org
Subject: RE: Kyusho Jutsu and Light Force KO's


Thank you Linda. I am looking at the challenge page and notice that it looks like rules and not much like an application. I think that I just need to
1) State what I think I can do.
2) Propose a Demonstration
3) State what will constitute a positive and negative result.

All of this on a seperate sheet of paper?

Then notarize and sign.

Is that close?

Thanks so much for any help!

Scott

Okay it seems as if I have a handle on what to do.

I will get the thing notarized this week, sign and send off to the JREF. Then will post any updated here.

Stay Tuned...
 
Oh dear, there are just so many problems associated with this kind of test. The human body can be both very strong and very weak, based on how you attack it. Not many people understand this, and a simple physiolocical effect can look supernatural to most (hence all the legends of people able to kill with the lightest touch, or some such nonsense).

For example, the way the brain is structured makes the head a very resiliant structure when struck from the front. It is apparently rare to find people unconcious after a head on car crash. However, a relatively light hit from the side could put someone in a coma for the rest of their life*. It would be extremely difficult, therefore, to define your 'minimal pressure' and to test it safely.

What is the supernatural nature of your claim exactly? I could knock someone out using a very light touch (at least, a lot lighter than most people would believe) but I would know exactly why it worked in the real world, no mumbo jumbo. The points I'd hit would probably fit the TCM system, but that doesn't make it supernatural. You will merely demonstrate a known physical effect.

* The brain has two halves, left and right. They are well padded within the skull. If hit from the front, the brain moves as one and is cushioned in the skull and suffers relatively light damage. If the skull is forced sideways, or twisted, the two halves move against each other, severing the conections between the two. This takes a lot less force to to than someone could take in a blow to the forehead. This is the reason martial artists, if performing a head break use the forehead, and boxers trying to knock their opponent out use a hooking blow to the side of the head.
 
My concern is along the lines of those posed by robbersdog...how would we go about demonstrating causation?...there are explanations for light force knockouts that reference non-TCM physiological mechanisms.

How would we know which method created the KO, absent a way to measure changes in TCM quantities?

Paul Nunis
 
These are my concerns as well. I will try and not include any part of the jaw, face or head in the attempts. I use the TCM model to teach from as I feel that it is much easier to understand than the MWM model. But, I have queried via e-mail and Linda told me to send in the application. I have it notarized and I am seding it off on Friday.

I think just because I submit an application doesn't mean that it will be accepted.

Scott
 
GroundStrength said:
Okay I am not clear on what constitutes an application (there is just a list of rules on the webpage).

and here they are

Claimed Abilty:
I state for the record that by using the TCM (traditional chinese medicine) model for point selection I can render a person unconscious through the combination of tuite jutsu(pressure point grappling) and kyusho jutsu(pressure point striking). The attempted KO will use minimal force on both the grappling and striking components.

Demonstration:
Using the TCM model for point selection, points will be selected that follow the model for best effect. Then I will place the subject(s) in a grappling technique (using the pre-selected points) and then a light-force strike will be issued to the final point(s). The subject should lost consciousness and fall into the arms of two (2) catchers behind him.

Is this all I need to provide (with the exception of the notarization and signature)?

All help welcome.

In addition to what's been suggested above, you should also consult other sources to see if the TCM techniques are duplicated in whole or in part, by other disciplines (martial arts for instance) that have explained the effects you describe in perfectly natural terms. That way, you can narrow down the items to be included in the test to those that are currently unexplained in any other way.

Also, I'm not clear on what paranormal effect you're trying to demonstrate here. Is it being able to knock someone out with less force than traditional methods? Knock them out for longer? Use different body parts as targets? Your testing protocol needs to be specific.
 
GroundStrength said:
These are my concerns as well. I will try and not include any part of the jaw, face or head in the attempts. I use the TCM model to teach from as I feel that it is much easier to understand than the MWM model. But, I have queried via e-mail and Linda told me to send in the application. I have it notarized and I am seding it off on Friday.

I think just because I submit an application doesn't mean that it will be accepted.

Scott

As far as I can see, you are just using the TCM to describe a real physical effect. Remember, just because your explaination is supernatural, it doesn't follow that the act is. Just think of dowsing and the ideomotor effect. You can explain it using supernatural explanations, but that doesn't make them true.

One simple question. What part of what you are going to do can't be explained by conventional science?
 
Everyone keeps pointing out the same things to this guy and asking him the same questions. He's apparently following the instructions from the JREF in good faith so let's not badger him into not participating. It's so rare that we get someone who's making a sincere attempt and not "Sending letters to [our] chief"

Certainly he needs to clarify his intent and method, but let's be a bit patient. If he's willing to submit to a controled test then he's working with us here. (By which I don't mean to imply that I speak for any group or for other forum members.)

GroundStrength, some clarification will be needed I'm sure. to satisfy the curious please keep us up to date on your application. Be patient though. They get a large number of applicants and have limited staff to review them. It may be a while before they respond.
 
I'm just curious. Sorry if I sound a little impatient/harsh. I get a little bit too cynical sometimes. My intention is never to upset someone, but to get my answers.

On the other hand, don't forget, this application could all be happening in private. None of us need know about it. By posting here of all places, I would assume that GroundStrength is looking for questions/criticism. He has posted on the forum before and is not a 'newbie' (I hate that word!).

I remember getting quite involved in a discussion with someone here, and I don't recall who, about badgering someone for an answer. My point was, if they didn't want to discuss the subject, then a discussion board really is the wrong place to post about it, don't you think?
 
DVFinn said:
Everyone keeps pointing out the same things to this guy and asking him the same questions. He's apparently following the instructions from the JREF in good faith so let's not badger him into not participating. It's so rare that we get someone who's making a sincere attempt and not "Sending letters to [our] chief"

And I understand everyone's points and concur. I am not silly enough to think that there are actual acupuncture points that do not correspond to some anatomical location, because they all do. I guess what will end up being tested is the TCM model, specifically what is called "five-element theory".

Ok here is an overview of the TCM model as it applies to combat...

Points are located along pathways called meridians. These meridians are associated with an organ/bowel. Organs/Bowels are associated to one of the elements. It gets much deeper but this should suffice for discussion.

Next, there are three "cycles" of energy: Constructive, Destructive and Diurnal. These are used individually or in combination to cause reactions in subject from pain to passing out.

In the tests I would select points that follow the TCM model that when used in combination would indicate a knockout.

The destructive cycle:
Fire melts metal
Metal cuts wood
Wood penetrates earth
Earth holds water
Water extinguishes fire

The Constructive Cycle:
Fire produces earth
Earth produces metal
Metal produces Water
Water feeds wood
Wood feeds fire

The Diurnal Cycle (The flow of energy thru the body over a 24 hour period)
Fire -> Wood -> Water -> Metal -> Earth

Organs and their Elements:
Fire: heart, small intestine, triple warmer, pericardium
Metal: Lungs, large intestine
Wood: Liver, Gall Bladder
Water: Bladder, kidney
Earth: Stomach, spleen

Of each organ pair one is classified as yin and one as yang

An example of a Destructive Cycle KO (that also uses yin/yang)

Heart 4,5,6,7
The points are on the radial side of the tendon of the flexor carpi ulnaris muscle,

Lung-5 (Metal)
On the cubital crease, on the radial side of the tendon of the biceps brachii. The point is located with the elbow slightly flexed. Located in the origin of the brachioradialis muscle.

Gall Bladder-20 (Wood)
In the posterior aspect of the neck, below the occipital bone, in the depression between the upper portion of the sternocleidomastoideus muscle and the Trapezius muscle.


This set of points when activated correctly should by the TCM model(as it applies to combat) cause a KO
(Yes, I know it contains the head, but I am just giving an example, usually Lung-5 when struck with a downward motion and slightly back towards you is enough to cause a KO by itself)

GroundStrength, some clarification will be needed I'm sure. to satisfy the curious please keep us up to date on your application. Be patient though. They get a large number of applicants and have limited staff to review them. It may be a while before they respond.

I will do it. I have no issues with being tested. So far most have been very helpful with suggestions.
 
robbersdog said:
As far as I can see, you are just using the TCM to describe a real physical effect. Remember, just because your explaination is supernatural, it doesn't follow that the act is. Just think of dowsing and the ideomotor effect. You can explain it using supernatural explanations, but that doesn't make them true.

That is correct. However the TCM model is in Randi's Encyclopedia as being woo-woo. I am saying that the model provides accurate information for attacking the body.

One simple question. What part of what you are going to do can't be explained by conventional science?
Not much I afraid and that was my point to Linda in the e-mail. However, she still said to send in the application.

Don't know if that is any clearer. :)
 
Thank you, GroundStrength. I'm interested in seeing where this goes. It would seem that you would be testing the explaination, rather than the reality. I can see how the TCM model would work as a fighting tool, but I really can't see this getting anywhere as an application. I could well be wrong though!
 
I also thank you for the reply GroundStrength.

Robbersdog, I was perhaps a bit knee-jerk there. I merely meant that multiple people were asking similar questions before allowing for a reply. I'm thrilled to see an applicant thats open to rational discussion. I'm fairly new on the board but from what I've seen most of them retreat to the "you don't believe me so you're all closed minded fools" stance. Didn't mean to address you in particular and I might have been a little pre-emptive. Hey, I'm an american. At least I didn't blow up anything.
 
Groundstrength,

I am wondering if perhaps you need to consider the difference between a metaphor and an explanation.

What I mean is, whilst the TCM model and similar might provide useful metaphors for bodily functions (i.e. by allowing you to visualise what you are trying to do) they do not actually explain what is going on - they are not literally true.

If we cut open a body, we find blood vessels, nerve endings, etc. These provide supporting evidence for the conventional medical theories that explain why you can knock someone out in this manner.

We do not find any supporting evidence of chi meridians or anything of that nature.

For that reason, I don't think you would get the prize for knocking someone out in this way.

Graham
 
I've noticed how the claim has changed from touch-KO's to "combination of light force and light grappling".

What's with this 5 element crap? It means nothing to those that don't understand your metaphor. How can you really expect Randi to accept your challenge if you aren't going to tell anyone what you are actually trying to do?

I'm not sure that the arm will be the only one used. Heck, it's a million dollars. I want to make sure that the I all choices (targets) available. However I do understand about having the head in general as a target.

Do you really think Randi is going to let you use "any" target? What are you going to call "minimal force". I remember hearing of Dillman giving a "light force" KO to someone's neck, his victim had a bruise that was so blue, it looked black.

What's next, are you going to claim you can knock someone out by lightly tapping them with a baseball bat?
 

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