"killer games"

I think right here might be your problem. School shooters are not "anti-social gun-mad lunatics".

There's no profile at all. Often they're quite normal. The Columbine shooters were initially reported as social outcasts who were constantly bullied but this proved to be totally false, and in fact they were reasonably popular with a circle of close friends as well as a wider group of friends.

There's one aspect of computer games which is often ignored, which isn't so much about the content but the behaviour of more "dedicated" players. The Columbine shooters began planning their shooting only after their access to computer games was increasingly restricted by their parents as punishment for getting in trouble. This resulted in them projecting their anger against their school mates.

I've witnessed this happen personally, with my brother. He's no homicidal or gun mad or anything like that, but he loves playing computer games. I can remember countless cases where my parents banned him from using the computer as punishment and he became incredibly aggressive as a result.

Computer game based entertainment is highly immersive, far more so than most other sorts of entertainment. That creates a dependency.

Interestingly it has nothing to do with the level of violence depicted in the game. I am sure you can find some examples in Japan or Korea of someone killing someone over a game like The Sims. Look at the documentaries about people who destroyed their own lives as a result of playing Second Life. I can easily imagine an emotional teenager, banned from such a game, snapping and killing people.

Banning the games is, of course, not the solution here. It's a case of bad parenting, plain and simple. Too many parents use the computer as a baby sitter, leaving their kids playing for hours and hours. Simply by limiting the time spent playing computer games you can prevent that habit forming.

Okay...you said that it's not relevant whether you've had any military service.
Now you sound as if you don't know d1ck about computer games. Do you?
Still not trying to be obnoxious, mind you :)

ETA: spoiled kids will throw tantrums when denied their will - quelle surprise.
 
Last edited:
One of the most remarkable pieces of evidence is muskets retrieved from black powder battlefields with multiple loads in the barrel - there were cases of muskets retrieved from Gettysburg with 20 rounds loaded into the barrel.

The mere fact that it was common for infantry units to stand opposite each other at short range and fire volley after volley for hours until they exhausted their ammunition is itself undeniable evidence about non-firers.


This raises a question: so how did things work back in, say, the Middle Ages or during the Roman Empire when battle often consisted of folks fighting at very close range and thrusting a sword into the opponent's belly? Were there a lot of non-sword thrusters?
 
This raises a question: so how did things work back in, say, the Middle Ages or during the Roman Empire when battle often consisted of folks fighting at very close range and thrusting a sword into the opponent's belly? Were there a lot of non-sword thrusters?



That's actually a myth. Stand-up killing in ancient warfare was pretty rare. Most deaths occurred after one army had broken.

There are some other factors to consider, however. Firstly, by far the easiest way to condition someone to kill is to actually get them to kill. Gangs in some South American cities train their child-recruits up by getting them to kill pets they've been keeping for a time. It's very effective.

In pre-industrial times your average man probably had a lot of experience with killing animals he owned because if he wanted to eat something he had to kill it. Humans naturally apply human characteristics to animals we keep, and that includes animals we're keeping as food.

Other examples include the training undergone by Spartans in ancient Greece - as a final part of their training they were sent out and required to kill helots for food. That's an excellent source of conditioning.

Atrocity, likewise, is a peer enforced conditioning process that uses actual killing.

So it can be expected that a much larger percentage of soldiers in a historic army would have already killed and been involved in killing, than in a modern army.

Another factor is the place of the warrior in society. In historic times, the warrior was the penultimate figure in society, and an ability to kill in battle was seen as the highest of achievements. Society exalted and praised their killers.

Acceptance of the social group is vital for protecting the psychology of killers. In contrast in modern society soldiers are generally not held in such high regard, and in particular soldiers are not held in high regard for being killers.

Even WW2 veterans, who were universally praised as heroes, found that society didn't actually want to know about the details of war, and didn't want to know about killing.

Getting back to the dynamics of warfare in those times:

A standard battle would involve forces arrayed against each other for a time, until one force attacked the other. Either the defending force would break, or the defending force would hold in which case the attack force would usually break. It was usually that quick.

Once one side breaks, the rules all change. Just as it's easier to kill if you're looking through a sniper scope or dropping bombs on a city from 10,000ft, it's easier to cut down a fleeing soldier from behind and move on than it is to stand eye to eye with a man, kill him, and watch him die.
 
Okay...you said that it's not relevant whether you've had any military service.

It's not.


Now you sound as if you don't know d1ck about computer games. Do you?

Yes, I do.


Still not trying to be obnoxious, mind you :)

Try harder...:p


ETA: spoiled kids will throw tantrums when denied their will - quelle surprise.

I'm not talking about spoiled kids throwing tantrums. I'm talking about young adults having markedly increased aggression and violence because they're denied access to something they want to do. That's an entirely different kettle of fish.
 
And this happens on your average shooting range and so much quicker if you own DooM³ ...?

We'll have to agree to disagree then :)


I don't know that it happens on your average shooting range, but it happens on military shooting ranges designed for that specific purpose, yes.

As for Doom 3, I don't know about that. I think games using a light gun are probably more effective.
 
What I mean is, what if the causality is the other way around? What if the tendency to be drawn to the more brutal and explicitly violent games of a genre, or to the more violent genres in general (say, to prefer Ultimate Chainsaw Bloodbath over My Little Pony 3D) is a symptom of the same condition (I hesitate to call it a disorder or illness just yet) that also causes people to react to a certain set of environmental conditions, such as years of nonstop bullying at school, with an explosion of violence rather than in a less wantonly destructive way?

And what if it's not just one of those two sides of the same coin, but is actually on a completely different coin altogether? For my part, I find violent games a great way of relieving stress. If you're having a bad day, instead of getting in fights in the pub, building up the stress until you snap, or whatever, you can just load up the computer and blow **** up. Far from increaing violence, I think it's likely that violent games actually decrease it, since they give an acceptable, harmless avenue for people to vent their frustration.

I think that's debatable, actually. There is one important point. It's not made clear, but Grossman's concern seems to be primarily focused on computer games where the player holds a "gun" controller and shoots at the screen. It's not clear what he things about mouse-keyboard or standard controller interfaces.

Which makes brining it up in this thread rather pointless, since the vast majority of video games do not have a gun. I haven't seen a light gun in someone's house since I was in primary school, and I can't remember the last time I actually saw anyone playing one of those arcade games with guns.

If people want to claim a connection between video games and violence, they're going to have to do a lot better than possibly implying some kind of vague connection between a tiny minority of games that hardly anyone plays and a possible decrease in resistance to killing without any actual increase in killing.
 
I'm not talking about spoiled kids throwing tantrums. I'm talking about young adults having markedly increased aggression and violence because they're denied access to something they want to do. That's an entirely different kettle of fish.

If your parents feel a need (and have the opportunity) to curtail your computer usage you may be young but certainly not an "adult" in any meaningful way.
 
And what if it's not just one of those two sides of the same coin, but is actually on a completely different coin altogether? For my part, I find violent games a great way of relieving stress. If you're having a bad day, instead of getting in fights in the pub, building up the stress until you snap, or whatever, you can just load up the computer and blow **** up. Far from increaing violence, I think it's likely that violent games actually decrease it, since they give an acceptable, harmless avenue for people to vent their frustration.



Which makes brining it up in this thread rather pointless, since the vast majority of video games do not have a gun. I haven't seen a light gun in someone's house since I was in primary school, and I can't remember the last time I actually saw anyone playing one of those arcade games with guns.

If people want to claim a connection between video games and violence, they're going to have to do a lot better than possibly implying some kind of vague connection between a tiny minority of games that hardly anyone plays and a possible decrease in resistance to killing without any actual increase in killing.

That's more or less what silly me meant to say all the time. Excellent.
 
That's actually a myth. Stand-up killing in ancient warfare was pretty rare. Most deaths occurred after one army had broken.


Doesn't really change the main point, since it still requires a direct and rather personal form of killing, and you're going to get covered in blood whether you stab the unfortunate other fellow in the chest or back. Were there non-sword thrusters chasing after the remnants of the other army?

Also, one may ask about the incidents, such as under Genghis Kahn or Alexander the Great, when the entire population of a conquered city was put to the sword. Were there non-sword thrusters in that circumstance?

Is this (alleged) non-participation in combat by soliders a more recent phenomenon? If so, when did it start? When firearms took over from swords and other similar weapons as the prime weapon of warfare?
 
As for Doom 3, I don't know about that. I think games using a light gun are probably more effective.

I haven't seen a light gun game in a while, do they still make them? In any case, how is that different from, say, kids playing cowboys and indians?
 
It's not.

Yes, it is.
I suspect that somebody who has actually been in the military and trained on a firing range would know more about the procedures then somebody who just knows it from an academic standpoint.
As for your statement that soldiers on the firing range are "conditioned to kill by shooting at figures", I guess the idea that that is the kind of target they would be shooting at it in battle, and it makes sense to train then on that kind of target would be rejected by you?
Sorry, Gumboot, but first hand experience counts for something.
And no freaking way is a computer game remotely like a real life firing range.
For for one thing, you don't have a DI looking over your shoulder and making
Helpful Suggestions In A Calm, Cheerful Voice:D
 
Did I miss a memo? Did Jack Thompson move to Germany?

If he did, can y'all make sure he never comes back here?

I offer fine Tennessee whiskey as an incentive for you to find a nice place for him to fall off of an alp, a berg, or something like that.

DR
 
I've witnessed this happen personally, with my brother. He's no homicidal or gun mad or anything like that, but he loves playing computer games. I can remember countless cases where my parents banned him from using the computer as punishment and he became incredibly aggressive as a result.

Is that really because of the video games, though? Or because they took away something he loved and wanted to do very badly?

Wouldn't most kids react the exact same way if you took away their American Idol, Sopranos reruns, their bowling game, their football game, their ski trip, their party, favorite radio show, computer time, their basketball game ticket, night out at the movies or their trip to Cancun? Bet a hundred bucks they would.
 
Did I miss a memo? Did Jack Thompson move to Germany?

If he did, can y'all make sure he never comes back here?

I offer fine Tennessee whiskey as an incentive for you to find a nice place for him to fall off of an alp, a berg, or something like that.

DR

We have enough of them of our own, thank you very much :D. Left and right. Though AFAIK none of them my age (which is not 16)...
 
Even the most incredibly realistic violent computer games available today can't hold a candle to the most realistic films, and they often can't hold a candle to actual videos and photos of real violence (which feature prominently in military desensitisation regimes).

Which military forces do this? Not very long ago I went through infantry school (US) and the closest thing I came to multimedia violence was a video of goat being killed with nerve gas to demonstrate how quickly it worked.
 
I love all the stories about Desensation in the Military.
I served back in the 80's, in the US Army Artillery and the nearest I came was some video tapes with gruesome footage of the aftermath of accidental explosions in the "This is what could happen if you don't take safety producers seriously" vein.
I am informed the Navy has the most gruesome of all : Of various accidents that can happen aboard Air Craft Carriers to get across to the new Swabbies that the flight deck of an Aircraft Carrier when launching operations are underway is a very Dangerous place to be.
 
Doesn't really change the main point, since it still requires a direct and rather personal form of killing, and you're going to get covered in blood whether you stab the unfortunate other fellow in the chest or back. Were there non-sword thrusters chasing after the remnants of the other army?

Also, one may ask about the incidents, such as under Genghis Kahn or Alexander the Great, when the entire population of a conquered city was put to the sword. Were there non-sword thrusters in that circumstance?

Is this (alleged) non-participation in combat by soliders a more recent phenomenon? If so, when did it start? When firearms took over from swords and other similar weapons as the prime weapon of warfare?

It's a strange fact that killing a helpless enemy is easier for most men than
killing an actively resisting one. Grossman's book "On killing" documents this
weird phenomenon quite well.

From a reading of the contemporary accounts, it's very apparent that, during
the confrontational phase, most casualties in ancient battles were inflicted
by missiles (arrows, javelins, sling-bullets, even hand thrown stones - and a
few catapult bolts in some cases too). These weapons would have been
delivered somewhat indiscriminately. When, and if, the battle lines closed
with each other the situation resolved itself quite quickly.

There are a few rare exceptions, of course, when well trained or disciplined
troops are involved. The accounts of veteran legions fighting each other
during the Roman civil wars are particularly good examples of these rarities.
In those cases (as at Forum Gallorum in 43 BCE for example; Hirtius and
Pansa vs Octavian) the men actually did go toe-to-toe and kill each other
face to face. The ancient writers describing these events were struck by
them (eg. one is amazed that the fighting was carried out in silence - the
men not bothering to shout battlecries because they knew that noise wasted
energy and only intimidated amateurs anyway), which might suggest their
comparative rarity.
 
Which military forces do this? Not very long ago I went through infantry school (US) and the closest thing I came to multimedia violence was a video of goat being killed with nerve gas to demonstrate how quickly it worked.

I've heard that during Desert Storm violent and pornographic films were shown
to personnel. I don't know of the veracity of that, though.
 

Back
Top Bottom