"killer games"

This is all true, but it's equally true of a soldier on a shooting range. Yet it's on a shooting range that a soldier is conditioned to kill. The fact that it's not real, but mimics reality, is a vital aspect of kill conditioning. It allows cognitive dissonance.
I would suggest though, that the soldier on the range will become more conditioned in a shorter time than a person playing a game. There's an infinite difference between a controller and an actual weapon. I don't argue it's possible, I argue that it probably isn't as effective.

I think you're looking at this backwards. It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) you're saying "I'm not conditioned to kill because if I was forced, through circumstance, to kill someone, I couldn't do it". That's not really what it's about. Try it this way:

"Imagine you want to kill someone." I mean genuinely, honestly want to kill someone. Now, absent conditioning, and absent extremely heightened emotional factors, 98% of people would be unable to kill someone even if they wanted to. Condition them, and 98% of people would easily be able to kill someone if they wanted to kill them.

That's the difference conditioning makes. It's an enabler, not a motivator.

The "motivator" question is a far more complicated question, and relates to social attitudes to violence, peer culture, and desensitisation to violence. That's the area where I personally think Grossman's arguments become weak - particularly his arguments regarding violent films.

I'm inclined to believe that what we have in society is a quite substantial subset of people who have been enabled but not motivated. I'd include people like myself in that category (I love FPS games).

From the perspective of violence in society, I think the major issue is the motivator, not the enabler, and the motivator isn't computer games.

Personally I find it more a concern that people want to inflict harm on others than people being able to inflict harm on others.

Your point is a very valid one, though I believe we're not disagreeing as much as not on the same page.

I'm of the opinion that games on their own are not a significant conditioning system/tool. A soldier goes through many forms of training to become a soldier, who's very job is to be prepared for battle if necessary. A doctor, accountant, or factory worker who's playing Call of Duty wouldn't be as effective in a battle as true soldiers would.

If that makes any sense. I could be rambling, it took me about ten tries to word that right.
 
I would suggest though, that the soldier on the range will become more conditioned in a shorter time than a person playing a game. There's an infinite difference between a controller and an actual weapon. I don't argue it's possible, I argue that it probably isn't as effective.

I think that's debatable, actually. There is one important point. It's not made clear, but Grossman's concern seems to be primarily focused on computer games where the player holds a "gun" controller and shoots at the screen. It's not clear what he things about mouse-keyboard or standard controller interfaces.

On the point of conditioning speed, I think there's some argument that a gamer would be conditioned faster. Firstly, gamers spend far more time playing their games than soldiers spend firing on the range.

Secondly, modern computer games often have highly comprehensive reward systems that give players both immediate and long term positive feedback for successful kills.

While the military features this too (it's an essential ingredient of conditioning) the military systems are nowhere near as complex or strong as those in computer games. With online gaming this is becoming increasingly an important feature of game play.

Tracking statistics, performance and rankings are becoming an integral part of the gaming experience.



I'm of the opinion that games on their own are not a significant conditioning system/tool. A soldier goes through many forms of training to become a soldier, who's very job is to be prepared for battle if necessary. A doctor, accountant, or factory worker who's playing Call of Duty wouldn't be as effective in a battle as true soldiers would.

If that makes any sense. I could be rambling, it took me about ten tries to word that right.

I understand what you mean, and you're right, but being a soldier isn't just about being conditioned to kill. In fact, until the 1950s being a soldier had nothing to do with conditioning to kill. No one thought soldiers needed it. All of those other aspects of soldier training are vital to making them effective and functional on the battlefield, but the kill conditioning regime is one specific subset of their training designed to address a particular problem.

So while a doctor, accountant or factory worker might not be an effective soldier (because of not having all of the training that makes a good soldier) they still might be as conditioned to kill as a soldier.

One of the really interesting things about the resistance to killing is that while it appears to be an incredibly robust and powerful inhibition, at the same time the careful application of certain particular influences can quite easily disable it (see the Milgram Experiment for example).

I think there's this misunderstanding that military kill conditioning is some sort of vast complex program that magically turns people into killers. It isn't. The actual kill conditioning aspect is incredibly simple, and quite brief. I think a lot of people would be surprised to discover just how little time a soldier actually spends firing their weapon during training.
 
I think that's debatable, actually. There is one important point. It's not made clear, but Grossman's concern seems to be primarily focused on computer games where the player holds a "gun" controller and shoots at the screen. It's not clear what he things about mouse-keyboard or standard controller interfaces.
Ah, light gun games. Gotcha.

On the point of conditioning speed, I think there's some argument that a gamer would be conditioned faster. Firstly, gamers spend far more time playing their games than soldiers spend firing on the range.

Secondly, modern computer games often have highly comprehensive reward systems that give players both immediate and long term positive feedback for successful kills.

While the military features this too (it's an essential ingredient of conditioning) the military systems are nowhere near as complex or strong as those in computer games. With online gaming this is becoming increasingly an important feature of game play.

Tracking statistics, performance and rankings are becoming an integral part of the gaming experience.
True enough. However, what isn't shown is the consequences that come from killing someone in a game. (Save for a few that were in depth like that.) Which may actually be a valid part of your point.




I understand what you mean, and you're right, but being a soldier isn't just about being conditioned to kill. In fact, until the 1950s being a soldier had nothing to do with conditioning to kill. No one thought soldiers needed it. All of those other aspects of soldier training are vital to making them effective and functional on the battlefield, but the kill conditioning regime is one specific subset of their training designed to address a particular problem.
Agreed.

So while a doctor, accountant or factory worker might not be an effective soldier (because of not having all of the training that makes a good soldier) they still might be as conditioned to kill as a soldier.

One of the really interesting things about the resistance to killing is that while it appears to be an incredibly robust and powerful inhibition, at the same time the careful application of certain particular influences can quite easily disable it (see the Milgram Experiment for example).

I think there's this misunderstanding that military kill conditioning is some sort of vast complex program that magically turns people into killers. It isn't. The actual kill conditioning aspect is incredibly simple, and quite brief. I think a lot of people would be surprised to discover just how little time a soldier actually spends firing their weapon during training.

No doubt. And I don't doubt that someone could condition themselves to kill entirely using games, what I doubt is that all gamers will be affected the same way.

It'll almost always largely depend on the individual in question as to how they'll react to any stimuli, not just games.
 
That's because there's no direct link between being conditioned to kill, and actually killing. That's the classic mistake that is made, and which I pointed out in my post, and which you ignored.
You haven't explained any practical basis for your "conditioning to kill" assertion, or even what exactly that's supposed to mean.

This is entirely true, but this is precisely why it's conditioning. Soldiers on the gun range can shoot at their targets for exactly the same reason - they know it's not real. Yet nonetheless, it's conditioning them to kill.
No, it doesn't "condition" them to kill. It teaches them useful weapon-handling, target-aquisition, and reaction skills. Conditioning is a much more complex process that involves classroom instruction in rudimentary philosophy, and the creation of a culture which supports desirable traits, while punishing or minimizing undesirable ones.
The vital element of conditioning is that the environment must match actual killing as closely as possible, while still avoiding a level of realism that would cause psychological trauma.
Actually, that's not entirely accurate, and based on somewhat outdated beliefs. Far more important to battlefield conditioning is creating an appropriate culture and supportive environment. Replicating a battlefield is good for testing skills and responses to stress; but group identity and peer support is a far more important factor in instilling the ability to kill an enemy while minimizing disabling psychological backlash.

In fact, there is very little actual realism in training; but there is a great deal of emotional stress, even trauma. None of it is associated with the battlefield, not because of the potiential for causing trauma; but because to do so would not effectively produce the mindset necessary.

The point of conditioning soldiers is to allow them to perform their duties with a minimum of psychological backlash. In order to do that, they need a resource for minimizing the psychological effects of performing their duty. Doing so requires creating a culture in which a soldier can be fully immersed. Strong psychological stresses are induced through various means, but only in very controlled settings which encourage a trainee to rely for support upon his peers, rather than himself or his superiors. In fact, superiors are intentionally placed in the role of "enemy" during these exercises. The trainee is completely isolated from every traditional means of support save for his immediate peer group. And just as the peer group is made the means of support, it is also made the means of punishment of undesirable behaviour, further reinforcing the group reliance and "us vs them" exclusionary behaviour.

It is this conditioning, basically a form of controlled and focussed mob mentality, that allows a soldier to kill enemy combatants without overwhelming psychological trauma. It's the same peer-reinforcement mentality that enables uncontrolled mobs to engage in lynching, gay bashing, gang rape, and other forms of violence without compunction or significant backlash; controlled by a strict discipline and code of ethics. That discipline can break down, and result in tragedies like My Lai and Nanjing; which shows just how close the two forms of group reinforcement are. Law enforcement officers go through a similar, but greatly reduced, variant of this training, with more emphasis on individual action; thus possessing a greater risk of psychological trauma.

Battlefield conditions are almost completely irrelevant to the process; and making them too realistic is counterproductive insofar as they make a soldier more likely to be self-reliant instead of group-reliant.
You want an environment that closely replicates the fundamental mechanics of the battlefield, in a less emotional and immediate way.
This is useful, but only to a very limited degree; and cannot even remotely accomplish the desired conditioning. All a battlefield environment can do is teach soldiers how to perform within that particular environment. As previously noted, it can even be counterproductive.
So, for example, targets appear randomly and unexpectedly, and when you achieve a successful "hit" those targets disappear. That's what modern military gun ranges do, and that's what computer games do.
That's what nearly every shooting game in the history of shooting has done; from military training down to carnival games. It is useful for developing skills; not useful for developing the ability to kill without crippling psychological backlash.
Arguably computer games do it better because the "fantasy" aspect of watching 2D images separates the shooter from the action enough that you can more closely replicate the mechanics of killing without issues. If targets on the gun range moved about like people, bled, writhed on the ground when shot, and screamed, I would be willing to bet soldiers wouldn't be able to work the range. It would traumatise them.
Only if they were unable to dissociate the fantasy game from reality; which is extremely rare for those who are not mentally ill. Stable, rational people don't walk out of Saving Private Ryan emotionaly traumatized; because they know that it's not real, it's fantasy (children and the mentally ill who have difficulty dissociating fantasy from reality are a different matter). The same with soldiers in training. No matter how realistic you make the training, as long as the soldier knows it's not real, there is no significant long-term psychological impact.
In contrast you can have all of that happen in a computer game without the least trauma or concern.
Which is why it's been proven effectively useless for anything other than skills training.
 
And yet multiple killers are usually middle or upper class, male, and tend to be loners. Serial killers are typically highly intelligent middle or upper class males - a group with otherwise very very low violent crime rates. Comparing overall crime rates is a non-starter.

Which is why I explicitly exempted sociopaths and the mentally ill from my previous statements. Do try to read more carefully.
 
One of the problems with Grossman's claim is that it's somewhat unfalsifiable because conditioning a person to kill only makes them more able to kill and doesn't do anything to make them more likely to want to kill. Thus it's not really possible to scientifically measure how effective games are at conditioning.

Grossman's work is highly flawed, and as you noted, some of his claims are unfalsifiable. It has not been supported by subsequent research; and Grossman lacks the scientific background and research necessary to support many of his conclusions.

One thing that he does get right, however, is that peer reinforcement and cultural censure are critical in both making and breaking violent behaviour. These, more than any other factor, are crucial in conditioning the ability to kill.
 
How recent is that? I was on there today and there were a total of 18 servers I saw listed with nobody on any of them.

Big difference between handling a 1911 in Metal Gear and a real one.
There are a huge number of Korean and Japanese quasi-free MMOs with larger userbases than America's Army.
 
I didn't say the US military used computer games to train soldiers. I said certain FPSs feature the same conditioning characteristics as military kill conditioning.
Which is patently false. They may contain some similar skills training; but there is nothing remotely resembling the psychological stresses and manipulation necessary to condition the ability to kill without traumatic backlash. It's a long, complicated, and severe process; and is not always successful.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any military experience at all?
Like I said, repeatedly, the claim is that the games condition a person to kill, not that they increase a person's motivation or desire to kill.
That's an oxymoron. The whole point of conditioning a person to kill is to increase their motivation to do so. Unless you're using an idiosyncratic version of the word "conditioning" that doesn't occur in standard English.
Yet it's on a shooting range that a soldier is conditioned to kill.
Nope, this is entirely and thorougly wrong. The shooting range does not in any way condition a soldier to kill. All it does is teach the necessary skills. Conditioning takes place in the barracks, formations, drills, classrooms, and various other seemingly unrelated exercises. If a shooting range conditioned a soldier to kill, they would spend far more time on it than they do. In fact, they spend very little time on the range compared to all their other training.
 
Last edited:
No, it doesn't "condition" them to kill. It teaches them useful weapon-handling, target-aquisition, and reaction skills. Conditioning is a much more complex process that involves classroom instruction in rudimentary philosophy, and the creation of a culture which supports desirable traits, while punishing or minimizing undesirable ones.

No, you're completely wrong. The military made fundamental changes to how gun ranges operated after WW2, and those changes had a direct and readily measurable affect on combat firing rates.


Actually, that's not entirely accurate, and based on somewhat outdated beliefs. Far more important to battlefield conditioning is creating an appropriate culture and supportive environment. Replicating a battlefield is good for testing skills and responses to stress; but group identity and peer support is a far more important factor in instilling the ability to kill an enemy while minimizing disabling psychological backlash.

You're mixing up multiple things. I think you're a little confused. Kill conditioning, specifically, happens on the gun range.


The point of conditioning soldiers is to allow them to perform their duties with a minimum of psychological backlash. In order to do that, they need a resource for minimizing the psychological effects of performing their duty. Doing so requires creating a culture in which a soldier can be fully immersed. Strong psychological stresses are induced through various means, but only in very controlled settings which encourage a trainee to rely for support upon his peers, rather than himself or his superiors. In fact, superiors are intentionally placed in the role of "enemy" during these exercises. The trainee is completely isolated from every traditional means of support save for his immediate peer group. And just as the peer group is made the means of support, it is also made the means of punishment of undesirable behaviour, further reinforcing the group reliance and "us vs them" exclusionary behaviour.

It is this conditioning, basically a form of controlled and focussed mob mentality, that allows a soldier to kill enemy combatants without overwhelming psychological trauma. It's the same peer-reinforcement mentality that enables uncontrolled mobs to engage in lynching, gay bashing, gang rape, and other forms of violence without compunction or significant backlash; controlled by a strict discipline and code of ethics. That discipline can break down, and result in tragedies like My Lai and Nanjing; which shows just how close the two forms of group reinforcement are. Law enforcement officers go through a similar, but greatly reduced, variant of this training, with more emphasis on individual action; thus possessing a greater risk of psychological trauma.

Battlefield conditions are almost completely irrelevant to the process; and making them too realistic is counterproductive insofar as they make a soldier more likely to be self-reliant instead of group-reliant.

This is useful, but only to a very limited degree; and cannot even remotely accomplish the desired conditioning. All a battlefield environment can do is teach soldiers how to perform within that particular environment. As previously noted, it can even be counterproductive.

That's what nearly every shooting game in the history of shooting has done; from military training down to carnival games. It is useful for developing skills; not useful for developing the ability to kill without crippling psychological backlash.

Only if they were unable to dissociate the fantasy game from reality; which is extremely rare for those who are not mentally ill. Stable, rational people don't walk out of Saving Private Ryan emotionaly traumatized; because they know that it's not real, it's fantasy (children and the mentally ill who have difficulty dissociating fantasy from reality are a different matter). The same with soldiers in training. No matter how realistic you make the training, as long as the soldier knows it's not real, there is no significant long-term psychological impact.

Which is why it's been proven effectively useless for anything other than skills training.



You're confusing entirely separate issues here. This is quite tiresome, because you're clearly not reading my posts. Soldiers undergo multiple facets of training. What you're talking about above is something separate to kill conditioning. Soldiers have undergone this type of training, in a variety of forms, for thousands of years. It's a vital part of breaking down the individual and reassembling them as part of the overall military unit, only capable of effectively functioning as a team.

This has nothing at all to do with kill conditioning.

Kill conditioning is very specific. The components are:

1. Use of human-shaped targets
2. Use of "pop-up" targets
3. Time limit on "kill window" (target drops back down after a time)
4. Immediate feedback (target drops if hit)

All of these elements were only introduced after WW2, in an effort to address non-firers. These are the components that condition soldiers to kill.

All of the other aspects of soldier training - the culture of violence, forcing soldiers to work together, desensitisation, have very useful and important roles in making soldiers effective in combat. None of them condition soldiers to kill.
 
Which is patently false. They may contain some similar skills training; but there is nothing remotely resembling the psychological stresses and manipulation necessary to condition the ability to kill without traumatic backlash. It's a long, complicated, and severe process; and is not always successful.

Again, you're mixing things up. Conditioning to kill and dealing with the backlash are entirely different issues. Vietnam War soldiers were the first ones conditioned en masse to kill (resulting in 98% fire rates) yet the Army were unprepared for the psychological consequences of that, and as a result psychological trauma amongst Vietnam war veterans is much, much higher than amongst any other combat veteran group.

Yes, conditioning processes are in place to cope with the backlash. Yes, those processes are complex and not always successful. No, they do not have anything to do with kill conditioning.


Just out of curiosity, do you have any military experience at all?

That's not relevant.


That's an oxymoron. The whole point of conditioning a person to kill is to increase their motivation to do so.

No it isn't. The entire purpose of kill conditioning was to deal with the fact that soldiers would not fire even when they wanted to.


Nope, this is entirely and thorougly wrong. The shooting range does not in any way condition a soldier to kill. All it does is teach the necessary skills.

You're wrong, and there's a very good reason gun ranges changed dramatically after WW2. If ranges were truly just there to teach mechanical skills, there would be no need for the often quite expensive target systems that exist on modern military ranges.


Conditioning takes place in the barracks, formations, drills, classrooms, and various other seemingly unrelated exercises.

All of those things existed for thousands of years, and yet soldiers still would not kill.


If a shooting range conditioned a soldier to kill, they would spend far more time on it than they do. In fact, they spend very little time on the range compared to all their other training.

That's really the point. Kill Conditioning is actually very easy, and achieved very quickly.
 
Grossman's work is highly flawed

In what way?


and as you noted, some of his claims are unfalsifiable. It has not been supported by subsequent research; and Grossman lacks the scientific background and research necessary to support many of his conclusions.

Virtually every study of combat ever conducted supports his contention. Quite simply, the results of a multitude of battles are impossible unless he's right.


One thing that he does get right, however, is that peer reinforcement and cultural censure are critical in both making and breaking violent behaviour. These, more than any other factor, are crucial in conditioning the ability to kill.

If you were familiar with Grossman's work you'd know that these aspects are important for insulating soldiers from the impact of killing, and are important in the atrocity dynamic, but play very little part in actually firing your weapon without compulsion.
 
I'll have to admit that I argue from incredulity.
Everybody and his brother plays these games, me and vitually all of my friends. For the past 20 years or so.
I also learned how to shoot some time ago. At, you know, targets.
How this has anything to do with real life killing sprees is thus far not clear to me.
 
I would suggest though, that the soldier on the range will become more conditioned in a shorter time than a person playing a game. There's an infinite difference between a controller and an actual weapon. I don't argue it's possible, I argue that it probably isn't as effective.
Ehhhhh.... Infinity is slowly becoming close to 0 in this case.
 
I'll have to admit that I argue from incredulity.
Everybody and his brother plays these games, me and virtually all of my friends. For the past 20 years or so.
I also learned how to shoot some time ago. At, you know, targets.
How this has anything to do with real life killing sprees is thus far not clear to me.

That's very true. Every teenage boy in the universe plays video games (and some teenage girls, too). About every man (and some women) in North America, Europe, Australia, Asia, South America and Africa plays them or has played them.

Very few of them kill anyone in any type of homicide, let alone a spree killing of this sort.

Which isn't to say video games can't be harmful and can't give the wrong ideas- but directly causing a school/workplace shooting? Maybe as one of many factors.

Surely there aren't any otherwise perfectly normal, happy and functional 16-year-olds turned into anti-social gun-mad lunatics after playing one too many games of Doom.
 
I'll have to admit that I argue from incredulity.
Everybody and his brother plays these games, me and vitually all of my friends. For the past 20 years or so.
I also learned how to shoot some time ago. At, you know, targets.
How this has anything to do with real life killing sprees is thus far not clear to me.


Very little. In only has one really relevant point which is that, if video games condition a person to kill, the average person, upon deciding to commit a mass shooting rampage, could continue with that rampage for some time before being overcome with guilt and stopping. In contrast, if your typical person had not been conditioned to kill they'd most likely be overcome with guilt after killing one or two people, and the incident would end.
 
Surely there aren't any otherwise perfectly normal, happy and functional 16-year-olds turned into anti-social gun-mad lunatics after playing one too many games of Doom.


I think right here might be your problem. School shooters are not "anti-social gun-mad lunatics".

There's no profile at all. Often they're quite normal. The Columbine shooters were initially reported as social outcasts who were constantly bullied but this proved to be totally false, and in fact they were reasonably popular with a circle of close friends as well as a wider group of friends.

There's one aspect of computer games which is often ignored, which isn't so much about the content but the behaviour of more "dedicated" players. The Columbine shooters began planning their shooting only after their access to computer games was increasingly restricted by their parents as punishment for getting in trouble. This resulted in them projecting their anger against their school mates.

I've witnessed this happen personally, with my brother. He's no homicidal or gun mad or anything like that, but he loves playing computer games. I can remember countless cases where my parents banned him from using the computer as punishment and he became incredibly aggressive as a result.

Computer game based entertainment is highly immersive, far more so than most other sorts of entertainment. That creates a dependency.

Interestingly it has nothing to do with the level of violence depicted in the game. I am sure you can find some examples in Japan or Korea of someone killing someone over a game like The Sims. Look at the documentaries about people who destroyed their own lives as a result of playing Second Life. I can easily imagine an emotional teenager, banned from such a game, snapping and killing people.

Banning the games is, of course, not the solution here. It's a case of bad parenting, plain and simple. Too many parents use the computer as a baby sitter, leaving their kids playing for hours and hours. Simply by limiting the time spent playing computer games you can prevent that habit forming.
 

Back
Top Bottom