"killer games"

They even went so far as to develop a violent Counterstrike-style mass-market game intended to serve as a training and recruitment tool -- America's Army -- which was launched in 2002.

Every single effort has proved a failure, and America's Army was a flop.

I don't want to disagree with your premise, just some little nitpicks on the specifics

Its about as violent as the smurfs. No blood, no guts

I wouldn't call AA a flop, it has a huge world wide userbase. Though in terms of using it to desensitize people to violence or whatever, I'll take you at your word.

The funniest thing to me about AA is the amount of terrbile bugs and attrocious inefficiency its riddled with. I'm afraid some terrorist will play it and say "damn this is all that billions of army dollars can make? I doubt their planes can even fly"

That said its pretty fun, and there are always players on from all over the world
 
Well, it's a known fact that a gun was never ever used to kill anyone, ever, before Doom came out.

If all else fails we can just play Desert Bus.
 
I wouldn't call AA a flop, it has a huge world wide userbase. Though in terms of using it to desensitize people to violence or whatever, I'll take you at your word.

It certainly has a cult following, as do many games. But in commercial terms (although not a commercial game), it was a failure, having captured only a fraction of the userbase of games like Counterstrike or Unreal. It's also a failure in terms of its original intent, as it hasn't been a significant recruiting tool; and has been effectively useless as a training tool.
 
This was hashed over ad nauseum the last time this issue came up, and the upshot was that there was absolutely no hard evidence to support such a conclusion. The fact that violent crime rates have continued to drop while games have continued to be violent, and have grown in popularity. You can throw in all the qualifications you want, realism or whatever, but the fact remains that there is simply no correlational link to be found, let alone a causative one.

That's because there's no direct link between being conditioned to kill, and actually killing. That's the classic mistake that is made, and which I pointed out in my post, and which you ignored.


The US military has been trying to find a link between violent video games and desensitization since at the early 1980s. It has commissioned multiple studies, and developed several combat simulators (I've actually used one of them) in an attempt to build a tool that would let them increase the effectiveness of soldiers on the battlefield, and minimize the psychological backlash.

You're talking about an entirely different issue here. Desensitisation is an effort to minimalise the backlash, but the backlash is a result of conditioning.

The military perfected conditioning prior to Vietnam - hence why firing rates went from 10% in WW2 to 98% in Vietnam. They solved the non-firer problem years before computer games. The problem is, as they discovered, soldiers who kill suffer a backlash. That was the unintended and very nasty side effect of conditioning. The efforts you're talking about have nothing to do with enabling soldiers to kill, but are about trying to reduce the negative side effects that result from enabling soldiers to kill.

Different kettle of fish entirely, and I agree completely with you and the military that computer games are a very poor way of desensitising people to violence because they're simply not realistic enough. Even the most incredibly realistic violent computer games available today can't hold a candle to the most realistic films, and they often can't hold a candle to actual videos and photos of real violence (which feature prominently in military desensitisation regimes).


They even went so far as to develop a violent Counterstrike-style mass-market game intended to serve as a training and recruitment tool -- America's Army -- which was launched in 2002.

Again, you're off base and the clue is in your own statement above. What was the purpose of "America's Army"? To condition a generation of young Americans to kill? No. It was a recruitment tool. It was designed to boost interest in the Army. Again, totally separate issue.


Ability to kill enemy soldiers has not been improved, and psychological backlash is still every bit as much of a problem as it has ever been. The only thing that has been effective in accomplishing either goal is a strong reliance on one's peer group and cultural hierarchy for identity and support. This has been demonstrated not only in the military, but also in law enforcement.

What you're referring to is vital for protecting soldiers from the backlash, yes. Equally vital is acceptance by the wider society, which is one reason WW2 vets suffered very low psychological trauma rates (most didn't shoot anyone, and society welcomed them home as heroes with parades) in comparison with Vietnam War veterans (most killed someone, and society was luke warm in its welcome or even rejected them outright).

However none of this works for the conditioning step. Very specific and precise conditioning techniques were established after WW2 and they involved the mechanics of shooting drill itself, not group culture. They are the only techniques that have ever had even a remote affect on kill conditioning, and certain computer games mimic them closely.


The only way that has ever been demonstrated to reliably increase a normal person's ability to kill is to dehumanize the person. Not the target, but the person himself.


Individual break-down has an entirely different purpose in the military which is to ensure the individual works as part of a unit and comes to rely on their comrades. This existed long before kill conditioning techniques, and didn't have any affect on ability to kill the enemy. It's great for discipline and teamwork. Great for getting soldiers to follow dangerous (or even fatal) orders. Not good for enabling killing.


People are able to engage in killing behaviour in video games precisely because they're not real. Because they know explicitly and intuitively that their targets are not real, that they are in no danger themselves, and that, ultimately, there is no actual harm being done.

This is entirely true, but this is precisely why it's conditioning. Soldiers on the gun range can shoot at their targets for exactly the same reason - they know it's not real. Yet nonetheless, it's conditioning them to kill.

The vital element of conditioning is that the environment must match actual killing as closely as possible, while still avoiding a level of realism that would cause psychological trauma. You want an environment that closely replicates the fundamental mechanics of the battlefield, in a less emotional and immediate way.

So, for example, targets appear randomly and unexpectedly, and when you achieve a successful "hit" those targets disappear. That's what modern military gun ranges do, and that's what computer games do.

Arguably computer games do it better because the "fantasy" aspect of watching 2D images separates the shooter from the action enough that you can more closely replicate the mechanics of killing without issues. If targets on the gun range moved about like people, bled, writhed on the ground when shot, and screamed, I would be willing to bet soldiers wouldn't be able to work the range. It would traumatise them.

In contrast you can have all of that happen in a computer game without the least trauma or concern.
 
Interestingly, the social and economic groups who have the greatest exposure to violent video games also have among the lowest violent crime rates. Likewise, those with the highest violent crime rates have the lowest exposure to such games. Video games, violent or otherwise, are most predominant among the middle and upper classes. Crime rates are highest among the lower (working class, working poor, welfare) classes; which are also the same classes where gang membership is highest.

Peer groups and culture have a far, far greater influence on one's ability to kill than video games could ever have.


And yet multiple killers are usually middle or upper class, male, and tend to be loners. Serial killers are typically highly intelligent middle or upper class males - a group with otherwise very very low violent crime rates. Comparing overall crime rates is a non-starter.
 
Perhaps if the games had been more realistic, he would have been less keen to shoot people, knowing how bloody a mess it makes? Who can tell...

A good idea! When you die in a game, you die! (Only virtually, of course, but still: You will never, ever, be able to enter into that particular virtual reality again! Once you're dead in that universe, you stay dead like in the real world. I bet they won't sell many of those, though.) :)
 
Don't forget comic books. In the 50s they were the cause of all Juvenile Delinquency.

How many kids play those games? How many are violent in the real world? Case closed.

That kind of lazy thinking (usually by reactionary, scared, misinformed adults) goes back further than the 50s and comic books. When Jesse Pomeroy killed two kids and maimed a few others back in the late 1800s, they blamed it on dime novels.

People in general don't want to put the necessary time and effort into informing themselves and thinking about these things. It's much easier to blame it on (fill in the blank, unless it includes religious belief).
 
It's sad that people pull out these stupid arguments, because it does actually detract from a legitimate point.

There's a good case that FPS-style computer games condition people to kill. Now, conditioning someone to kill has no bearing whatsoever on their desire to be violent or to kill, but what it does do is disables a natural safeguard that prevents most people from killing.

So it doesn't make them more violent or aggressive, but if they get violent and aggressive and decide they want to kill someone, it means they're more likely to be able to do it, and more likely to be able to take down multiple victims.

What is that case? I mean who made that case? Based on what?
 
What is that case? I mean who made that case? Based on what?

Lt Col Dave Grossman made it in his book On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society. It's based on comparing the basic features of certain FPS style computer games with the proven conditioning techniques developed by the US Army after WW2 to address the problem of soldiers not firing their weapons in combat.

In the second part of the book and in some of his other writing Grossman goes on to make some conclusions about desensitisation in society that I think are flawed, but the kill conditioning premise seems fairly sound.

One of the problems with Grossman's claim is that it's somewhat unfalsifiable because conditioning a person to kill only makes them more able to kill and doesn't do anything to make them more likely to want to kill. Thus it's not really possible to scientifically measure how effective games are at conditioning. His argument is more along a line of logic, which is:

X = kill conditioning
Game Y = X
Therefore
Game Y = kill conditioning
 
Lt Col Dave Grossman made it in his book On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society. It's based on comparing the basic features of certain FPS style computer games with the proven conditioning techniques developed by the US Army after WW2 to address the problem of soldiers not firing their weapons in combat.

In the second part of the book and in some of his other writing Grossman goes on to make some conclusions about desensitisation in society that I think are flawed, but the kill conditioning premise seems fairly sound.

One of the problems with Grossman's claim is that it's somewhat unfalsifiable because conditioning a person to kill only makes them more able to kill and doesn't do anything to make them more likely to want to kill. Thus it's not really possible to scientifically measure how effective games are at conditioning. His argument is more along a line of logic, which is:

X = kill conditioning
Game Y = X
Therefore
Game Y = kill conditioning

So playing Call of Duty (TM) "conditions" me to kill, thus making me more "able" to do it? Doesn't sound convincing to me.
I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I just don't buy it :).
 
Lt Col Dave Grossman made it in his book On Killing: The Psychological Cost Of Learning To Kill In War And Society. It's based on comparing the basic features of certain FPS style computer games with the proven conditioning techniques developed by the US Army after WW2 to address the problem of soldiers not firing their weapons in combat.

In the second part of the book and in some of his other writing Grossman goes on to make some conclusions about desensitisation in society that I think are flawed, but the kill conditioning premise seems fairly sound.

One of the problems with Grossman's claim is that it's somewhat unfalsifiable because conditioning a person to kill only makes them more able to kill and doesn't do anything to make them more likely to want to kill. Thus it's not really possible to scientifically measure how effective games are at conditioning. His argument is more along a line of logic, which is:

X = kill conditioning
Game Y = X
Therefore
Game Y = kill conditioning

Real quick here: the claim that a significant number of soldiers during WW2 did not fire their weapons was made by Gen. S.L.A. Marshall in his book Men Against Fire and has been widely discredited.

The only attempt I ever heard of to train soldiers via a video game was the U.S. Army's use of a game now called Full Spectrum Warrior which is not FPS.

I don't doubt there was an attempt to supress the human inhabition to kill by the U.S. Army based upon, among other things, Marshall's claim however I'd argue we are a long way from establishing that commerical violent video games have any casual effect whatever on people commiting violent acts.
 
It certainly has a cult following, as do many games. But in commercial terms (although not a commercial game), it was a failure, having captured only a fraction of the userbase of games like Counterstrike or Unreal. It's also a failure in terms of its original intent, as it hasn't been a significant recruiting tool; and has been effectively useless as a training tool.

Most coders would KILL for a "failure" like this

10921564235americasarmy.png
 
Most coders would KILL for a "failure" like this

[qimg]http://shup.com/Shup/130512/10921564235americasarmy.png[/qimg]

How recent is that? I was on there today and there were a total of 18 servers I saw listed with nobody on any of them.


Big difference between handling a 1911 in Metal Gear and a real one.
 
Real quick here: the claim that a significant number of soldiers during WW2 did not fire their weapons was made by Gen. S.L.A. Marshall in his book Men Against Fire and has been widely discredited.

No it hasn't. A very small number of writers have questioned his methods, but countless research into WW2 and earlier conflicts has supported his findings and reinforced the point.

One of the most remarkable pieces of evidence is muskets retrieved from black powder battlefields with multiple loads in the barrel - there were cases of muskets retrieved from Gettysburg with 20 rounds loaded into the barrel.

The mere fact that it was common for infantry units to stand opposite each other at short range and fire volley after volley for hours until they exhausted their ammunition is itself undeniable evidence about non-firers. There is absolutely no possible explanation for such phenomenon except for soldiers intentionally refusing to fire at the enemy.


The only attempt I ever heard of to train soldiers via a video game was the U.S. Army's use of a game now called Full Spectrum Warrior which is not FPS.

I didn't say the US military used computer games to train soldiers. I said certain FPSs feature the same conditioning characteristics as military kill conditioning.


I don't doubt there was an attempt to supress the human inhabition to kill by the U.S. Army based upon, among other things, Marshall's claim however I'd argue we are a long way from establishing that commerical violent video games have any casual effect whatever on people commiting violent acts.

Like I said, repeatedly, the claim is that the games condition a person to kill, not that they increase a person's motivation or desire to kill.
 

I'm not him but, I've personally never bought it for the following reason:

I have a distinct understanding that a life I end in a game is not an actual human life. It is the representation of one on a screen. I thus have no problem laying waste to the avatars of others all day because I know they aren't going to be dead in real life.

Now, if I even begin to imagine having to be in a real life gunfight situation, I don't think I could do it. Because I know that my action has a real consequence. There's just that difference in my mind.

Could be different for others, but I would imagine that without serious reinforcement of the idea to condition someone to kill, that just playing games wouldn't actually make it easier.
 
I have a distinct understanding that a life I end in a game is not an actual human life. It is the representation of one on a screen. I thus have no problem laying waste to the avatars of others all day because I know they aren't going to be dead in real life.

This is all true, but it's equally true of a soldier on a shooting range. Yet it's on a shooting range that a soldier is conditioned to kill. The fact that it's not real, but mimics reality, is a vital aspect of kill conditioning. It allows cognitive dissonance.


Now, if I even begin to imagine having to be in a real life gunfight situation, I don't think I could do it. Because I know that my action has a real consequence. There's just that difference in my mind.

I think you're looking at this backwards. It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) you're saying "I'm not conditioned to kill because if I was forced, through circumstance, to kill someone, I couldn't do it". That's not really what it's about. Try it this way:

"Imagine you want to kill someone." I mean genuinely, honestly want to kill someone. Now, absent conditioning, and absent extremely heightened emotional factors, 98% of people would be unable to kill someone even if they wanted to. Condition them, and 98% of people would easily be able to kill someone if they wanted to kill them.

That's the difference conditioning makes. It's an enabler, not a motivator.

The "motivator" question is a far more complicated question, and relates to social attitudes to violence, peer culture, and desensitisation to violence. That's the area where I personally think Grossman's arguments become weak - particularly his arguments regarding violent films.

I'm inclined to believe that what we have in society is a quite substantial subset of people who have been enabled but not motivated. I'd include people like myself in that category (I love FPS games).

From the perspective of violence in society, I think the major issue is the motivator, not the enabler, and the motivator isn't computer games.

Personally I find it more a concern that people want to inflict harm on others than people being able to inflict harm on others.
 

Back
Top Bottom