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Kansas Classroom...

In that case, you contradicted yourself.

Where? I can't see any contradiction on Arkan's part. Schools conduct many mandatory classes. This doesn't impinge on anyone's freedom or rights. Schools conduct classes on comparative religion, too. Some schools even have classes on Bible as Literature. So what?


Forcing one religion to learn something is against the establishment cause.

The hell it is. Teachers do it all the time. I force Christians to learn English whether they want to or not. (Actually, we can't force anyone to learn much of anything, but I'm constrained to Johnny's phrasing.) And I'll jolly well force Muslims, Buddhists, and Flat-Earthers to learn English, too, if they sit in my class.

You should stick with short, ambiguous postings as not to do this.

:catfight:
 
Again, briefly acknowledging an alternate belief or not making evolution a mandatory part of the curriculum is not changing science and replacing it with magic. Its on such a small scale it would be, using your analogy, one grammar error on a paper being overlooked.

The last time I checked, science requires evidence and proof to back it's theories and hypotheses. It is not about belief. When you acknowledge an alternate belief with zero evidence you most certainly are changing science and replacing it with magic. How is this not clear to you?
 
I thought it was funny until you get to the end. Taking 10 seconds to say "God may have created Earth" is hardly hijacking science class, especially chemistry which is what is shown on the chalkboard.
I read through the thread and I've tried to digest it all but I could have missed something so please forgive me if I'm going over old ground.

Without speaking to the cartoon, I don't care at all how long it takes to make the statement I don't at all see how it has anything whatsoever to do with science. If it was a 5 second statement about the possibility of fairies and hobbits then it is 5 seconds too long.

An intelligently designed universe is the provence of faith. If and when someone postulates a testable hypothesis for ID I'll be there with bells on to get it into the science class.

Until then teach it in a theology class, a mythology class, creative writing, I don't care. It's not science.

Okay then, lets have Kansas not just teach creationism, but make it a whole seperate class and make it a full semmester and mandatory that every student takes it. Now everyone's happy.
I don't follow your logic. Teaching science isn't about making people happy. If it would make everyone happy to teach various creation myths and the belief in an intelligent designer in world religions or some made up class that included anything else then that is fine. Let them work out the details. I don't care. It's a false dichotomy to suggest that we either include ID or teach a whole separate class that is mandated.
 
Where? I can't see any contradiction on Arkan's part. Schools conduct many mandatory classes. This doesn't impinge on anyone's freedom or rights. Schools conduct classes on comparative religion, too. Some schools even have classes on Bible as Literature. So what?




The hell it is. Teachers do it all the time. I force Christians to learn English whether they want to or not. (Actually, we can't force anyone to learn much of anything, but I'm constrained to Johnny's phrasing.) And I'll jolly well force Muslims, Buddhists, and Flat-Earthers to learn English, too, if they sit in my class.



:catfight:


What slingblade said.
 
Johnny C. said:
Throughout all of high school, going through AP Bio (so I have about 2.5 years), evolution hasnt been brought up once. by completely removing it from the curriculum, there is no way it will turn into a slippery slope.
Its not possible to talk about topoisomerase without introducing evolution? Evolution would come up, eg These organisms are likely descendants of [whatever], but as for covering the theories of evolution, I havent come close to anything like that since 6th grade.
Well, which is it?

What you're saying is equivalent to asserting that you are no longer using science in your biology class because the course doesn't have a unit covering the scientific method.
 
Sort of funny how you have a decade on him and he still refers to you as "son" in an attempt to establish dominance. He's only been here a couple of days and I've already decided to ignore him.

Steven
I didn't realize at the time that Johnny is still in high school. That makes me inclined to be a little more patient with him. When I was his age, I was still reading Rush Limbaugh and listening to Christian rock. So there's hope that he may yet turn out all right.
 
Oh, Christians arent allowed to speak English? What are you getting at?
I believe what she was getting at was that mandatory education is not, as you suggested, a violation of the Establishment Clause. And she's absolutely right about that.
 
I believe what she was getting at was that mandatory education is not, as you suggested, a violation of the Establishment Clause. And she's absolutely right about that.

That wasnt what I was saying.

How is preventing ID from being taught seperation of church and state (which you hopefully know originated from a letter by Thomas Jefferson and is not officially in any document) but forcing these kids to learn evolution isnt violating that?

Furthermore, is teaching someone ID respecting the establishment of religion? You say yes, I say no.

Do you know who else says no? John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, and David Souter. There is no use debating it, when and if it goes to court will decide what happens.
 
How is preventing ID from being taught seperation of church and state (which you hopefully know originated from a letter by Thomas Jefferson and is not officially in any document) but forcing these kids to learn evolution isnt violating that?

Teaching evolution is teaching science, not religion- no matter how much you want to try and paint it as religion.

ID is not science. Even a fool can read the transcripts of the Dover trial and see that the best known proponents of ID admit that in order to call ID science we have to change the definition of science.


Do you know who else says no? John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, and David Souter. There is no use debating it, when and if it goes to court will decide what happens.

Why is there no use debating it? The court ruled on abortion about 30 years ago. Would you say there's no use debating it? Would you say that the debate that's been going on for the past 30 years had no use?
 
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That wasnt what I was saying.

How is preventing ID from being taught seperation of church and state (which you hopefully know originated from a letter by Thomas Jefferson and is not officially in any document) but forcing these kids to learn evolution isnt violating that?

Furthermore, is teaching someone ID respecting the establishment of religion? You say yes, I say no.

Do you know who else says no? John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, and David Souter. There is no use debating it, when and if it goes to court will decide what happens.
Preventing ID from being taught is seperation of church and state as it should be. Evolution is a science not a religion therefore teaching it violates nothing. By the way you cannot force anyone to learn. After all you may lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

There is nothing wrong with teaching ID as such. Teaching it as science and particularly as an alternate theory to evolution is outrageous as it is neither. In fact it isn't even a hypothesis. If you think it is then please state it.
 
Teaching evolution is teaching science, not religion- no matter how much you want to try and paint it as religion.

ID is not science. Even a fool can read the transcripts of the Dover trial and see that the best know proponents of ID admit that in order to call ID science we have to change the definition of science.

Why is there no use debating it? The court ruled on abortion about 30 years ago. Would you say there's no use debating it? Would you say that the debate that's been going on for the past 30 years had no use?
Of course it isnt science, its just say everything you learned about the big bang and evolution is true, god just orchestrated it. I dont see why everyone is whinning about it

Its nice learning other views but cherry picking on the internet wont change anything.
 
That wasnt what I was saying.
Yes, it is:
In that case, you contradicted yourself. Forcing one religion to learn something is against the establishment cause. You should stick with short, ambiguous postings as not to do this.

How is preventing ID from being taught seperation of church and state (which you hopefully know originated from a letter by Thomas Jefferson and is not officially in any document)
I'm well aware of the origin of that phrase, and I'm also aware of the Lemon v. Kurtzman test that applies to determine which govermental actions are violations of the Establishment Clause-- which is in the Constitution.
The answer, as held by Judge Jones in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, is that Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory; it is creationism warmed over with a sprinkling of scientific-sounding language. Teaching a religious doctrine as science in a public school is a violation of the Establishment Clause.

but forcing these kids to learn evolution isnt violating that?
Because, unlike Intelligent Design, the theory of evolution is a scientific theory based on conclusions drawn from empirical evidence. It is not a religious viewpoint. It asserts no religious claims, and it does not prefer one religious view over another.

Furthermore, is teaching someone ID respecting the establishment of religion? You say yes, I say no.
Good thing we have legal standards to break the deadlock. See the Lemon case, and Kitzmiller, cited above.

Do you know who else says no? John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, and David Souter. There is no use debating it, when and if it goes to court will decide what happens.
Can you offer any evidence for these claims? Scalia dissented in the Edwards v. Aguillard case, which held the teaching of creation science unconstitutional, so you're probably right there. Thomas always agrees with Scalia, and I wouldn't be too surprised if Roberts and Alito went in that direction, too. I would be absolutely shocked if Souter joined in that opinion, though. Are you just assuming that because Souter was appointed by the first President Bush, he would join in a conservative majority? You might want to do a little research into Souter's voting record before making that claim. If you have specific information that Souter, or any of the other Justices (besides Scalia, whom I'll give you) have spoken about this issue in the past, I'd like to see it.
 
Of course it isn't science...
There, you have your answer. What is science is potential material for a science class. What isn't science isn't.

...its just say everything you learned about the big bang and evolution is true, god just orchestrated it.
Give me a scientific basis to say this in a science class and I will support it. I was an ID proponent for years. When it became clear to me that ID did no more than ask questions and failed to postulate any testable theory then it became clear to me that I could no longer support ID as a scientific study. Bear in mind that was when I was still a deist. That was when I still accepted ID.

I dont see why everyone is whinning about it
I'm make this as clear and concise as I can.

It is not science. End of story.
 
Because, unlike Intelligent Design, the theory of evolution is a scientific theory based on conclusions drawn from empirical evidence. It is not a religious viewpoint. It asserts no religious claims, and it does not prefer one religious view over another.
We are looking at this two different ways. ID, from the little bit I know about it, says God must have facilitated conditions for the world to be formed and life to evolve. Its not challenging evolution or the big bang, just saying that there was an underlying factor and that millions of random events and blind chance couldnt allow for it to be done. Then evidence is presented about the rate of the universe expanding, amount of gases in universe, statisitical improbability, etc.

Now, evolution has evidence like adaptation seen in viruses every year, bacteria strains adapting (this is how evolution can be remotely brought up in class without talking about Darwinism. Whoever tried to make me look like a fool earlier, nice attempt), and of course fossil evidence. They even have found another "missing link" which was previously the best argument against evolution.

So, evolution has all this evidence, but there is little to none for the actual creation of life. There was a handful of experiments where adenine and Thymine (IIRC) where produced in a lab, but thats hardly evidence. Thats like finding flour and an egg near each other and calling it a loaf of bread.

Some interesting scientific research has been performed into estimating the minimal gene set required for a living cell, and this has been followed up by experiments on Mycoplasma genitalium, the simplest known cell, to see how many genes could be damaged before the organism failed to survive and reproduce. The original estimate determined that approximately 256 genes would be the minimal set required to support a viable cell. The experiments on Mycoplasma genitalium, however, never managed to reach this low level: their experiments suggest that between 265 and 350 genes are necessary.

Even if we take the lower estimate of 256 (which isn't too far below the lower end of the experimental data), then it's clear that we have a problem that's far too big to produce by chance. Genes can be made up of 100s of pairs of nucleotides, so I am not impressed by some adenine being made. How about making a living organism from nothing before claiming you have empiracle evidence that me, you, Randi, and every living cell in in this world came from essentially nothing.

In summation, ID simply says our world could not have randomly come from nothing without the help of a God, fairy, hobbit, or magic. It does not dispute evolution at all. until science actually has empiricle evidence that life can arise from nothing, let only absorb fully broken down inorganic molecules as energy, teaching ID or any other theory has no more evidence on the start of life than evolution. Because God/Magic/Hobbit can never be proven, the burden of proof is on you to show that a living organism can arise from non-living material. Good luck.

http://www.cbs.dtu.dk/staff/dave/min_gen_ref.html
 
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In summation, ID simply says our world could not have randomly come from nothing without the help of a God, fairy, hobbit, or magic. It does not dispute evolution at all. until science actually has empiricle evidence that life can arise from nothing, let only absorb fully broken down inorganic molecules as energy, teaching ID or any other theory has no more evidence on the start of life than evolution. Because God/Magic/Hobbit can never be proven, the burden of proof is on you to show that a living organism can arise from non-living material. Good luck.
Intelligent design proponents such as Michael Behe assert the concept of "irreducible complexity", that genetic pathways could not have arisen through the mechanisms proposed by evolutionary theory. This is a direct challenge to evolution, and NOT to abiogenesis. Are you deliberately trying to change the subject from evolution to abiogenesis, or are you just completely unfamiliar with ID?

Some ID proponents probably do address the origin of life, but they certainly challenge evolutionary theory as well, and criticism of evolution is undoubtable central to their cause. You should read up on their "theory" in their own words:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/
and responses from a scientific perspective:
http://www.talkorigins.org/
 
(this is how evolution can be remotely brought up in class without talking about Darwinism. Whoever tried to make me look like a fool earlier, nice attempt)
I'm assuming this is addressed to me.

You said:
Throughout all of high school, going through AP Bio (so I have about 2.5 years), evolution hasnt been brought up once.
Note that the bolded word is "evolution", not "Darwinism". If you meant to say something else, you should correct yourself rather than denigrating those that point out your mistakes.
 
So, evolution has all this evidence, but there is little to none for the actual creation of life.
Oh, I get it, so god did it. This is called "god of the gaps". It is argument from ignorance and it is a fallacy.

In summation, ID simply says our world could not have randomly come from nothing without the help of a God, fairy, hobbit, or magic.
Yes, how nice.

...until science actually has empiricle evidence that life can arise from nothing...
Argument from ignorance. God of the gaps.

Because God/Magic/Hobbit can never be proven, the burden of proof is on you to show that a living organism can arise from non-living material.
No.
 
In summation, ID simply says our world could not have randomly come from nothing without the help of a God, fairy, hobbit, or magic. It does not dispute evolution at all. until science actually has empiricle evidence that life can arise from nothing, let only absorb fully broken down inorganic molecules as energy, teaching ID or any other theory has no more evidence on the start of life than evolution. Because God/Magic/Hobbit can never be proven, the burden of proof is on you to show that a living organism can arise from non-living material. Good luck.
Here is where I start running into problems with ID. Every time I ask a proponent of ID what the theory or hypothesis is I get something different. That is in contrast to scientific theories which a very clear on what they state. If "ID simply says our world could not have randomly come from nothing without the help of a God, fairy, hobbit, or magic" is a paraphrasing of the theory or hypothesis then it fails to be scientific. As soon as you try to bring magic or magical beings into the explanation you are no longer doing science. Science is only interested in natural explanations for things.

A non-living material is much different from nothing. No one believes life came from nothing, something had to start the process. Something natural and explanable within the framework of science. Not something magical.

We know that there is life now. We know that at one time there wasn't life. Where did it come from and how did it start? I don't know personally but I know that many scientists are hot on the trail with many well thought out hypothesis. It had to be magic is an unacceptable explanation.

Something that can never be proven, I'm thinking God/Magic/Hobbit, can't possibly exist. Something that can't possibly exist couldn't possibly have influenced the beginning of life. Right?
 
Oh, Christians arent allowed to speak English? What are you getting at?

Son, everyone's pointed out how obtuse you were being. I just want to point out that your reading comprehension stinks lousy.

If I forced Christians to learn English, then they would, by necessity, be speaking English. At least, around me.

Exactly how

"I force Christians to learn English"

means

"Christians aren't allowed to speak English"

is well and truly beyond me. Congratulations.
 

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