Just One Case

[Garrette]

Almost thought the site was credible until I saw the following sentence on the page



Not independently verified.

In my professional life, I would reject this page as a self-serving testimonial. The only way I would accept the individual letters quoted on the page would be in the original, accompanied by notarized copies of the authors' credentials. I would also demand a letter and credentials from at least two individuals per incident being sworn to. Mind you, this is just to accept the letter into evidence, not to believe it. As standard operating procedure, since we're talking about arrests and such, I would request notarized copies of the police reports and of the court transcripts where the officers stated under oath what led them to make the arrests.

Now, that's what I would do for something fairly mundane, such as Weber trying to document that she had materially assisted police by, say, making a citizen's arrest. Given the nature of how she actually claims to have helped, I think I would also seek additional evidence, although I'd have to think long and hard about exactly what to ask for.

You are correct, of course, but sadly this stance is taken by believers as evidence that skeptics just won't believe anything they present as confirmatory.

 

[Rodney]

Both of those anecdotes involve somone claiming that the psychic's information was accurate after the fact, but in neither case did the psychic's information lead to the arrest.

The question posed by Jackalgirl was this: "does anyone know of one case, just one case, in which a psychic has actually provided key (or, heck, even usefully non-vague) information to law enforcement personnel that has led to the solving of the case in question?"

According to the letter written by retired Detective Lieutenant Ross English:

"I first met Nancy in 1980 when one of my female police officers introduced her to me when I had reached a dead end on a rape murder case. The victim was found floating in the local lake and the cause of death was drowning and an injury to the head. Nancy was able to describe the suspected crime scene and basically what took place and the physical features of our suspect. That information was locked in my desk for almost a year in a file at the police station. I followed up on the information received and reinterviewed the suspect and was able to get a confession. Nancy continued to work with me on several more cases after that. One was a burglary at ther home where a rifle and other items were taken. She was able to point out where I could find a laten print left by a perpetrator which I developed and lifted. She was also able to describe 2 juveniles, where they lived and where they hid the rifle. I investigated further, obtained a search warrant and found the gun. I arrested the 2 juveniles who confessed."

So, if the above account is accurate, that's two cases in which a psychic provided key information to law enforcement personnel that led to the solving of the case.

 

[Garrette]

So, if the above account is accurate, that's two cases in which a psychic provided key information to law enforcement personnel that led to the solving of the case.

Not just those two, but the two others in English’s letter.

Unfortunately, there are no specifics or corroboration.

You are fond, Rodney, of throwing out claims as if they are serious evidence. If we were discussing this in a pub or somewhere else face to face, I’d merely tell you that you need to find actual evidence before I dissect it. I only do it here for benefit of lurkers who may not yet know that outrageous claims do not equal substantive evidence.

Ross English does not appear in my internet searches (at least not the Ross English who wrote this letter; there are other Ross Englishes out there).

Nor does E and K investigations Group, LLC, of which he is co-founder, according to the letter.

Both appear only on Nancy’s website.

I also cannot find anything on the actual crimes to which English refers. The rape-murder occurs in 1979 or 1980 (per his letter) and that is before archived materials from the relevant papers I tried.

I have emailed the North Carolina Public Defender’s Office for verification of English’ time there and the Mount Olive Police Department for verification of his time there along with details of the cases English mentions.

As the descriptions are fairly vague, I do not know if I will have success finding out about the cases.


English says “Nancy was able to describe the suspected crime scene and basically what took place and the physical features of our suspect. That information was locked in my desk for almost a year in a file at the police station.” Going just slightly out on a limb here, I will venture that English is attributing too much to Weber. The crime he refers to is a rape-murder in which the victim was found in a lake. Those details almost certainly made the newspapers, along with developments in the case. English makes it plain that they had a suspect before Weber came along; it is unlikely that the questioning of a suspect was kept secret from the media and therefore it is unlikely that his description was unavailable to Weber.

The other case English talks about is the burglary in which a rifle “and other items” were stolen. There is an unfortunately placed typo in his account so it is unclear, but it seems that this burglary occurred at Weber’s house. As such, it is hardly surprising that Weber could point the police to her own kitchen window as possible access and worthy of checking for fingerprints.

All of which assumes that it isn’t all just made up.

 

[Gr8wight]

The question posed by Jackalgirl was this: "does anyone know of one case, just one case, in which a psychic has actually provided key (or, heck, even usefully non-vague) information to law enforcement personnel that has led to the solving of the case in question?"

According to the letter written by retired Detective Lieutenant Ross English:

"I first met Nancy in 1980 when one of my female police officers introduced her to me when I had reached a dead end on a rape murder case. The victim was found floating in the local lake and the cause of death was drowning and an injury to the head. Nancy was able to describe the suspected crime scene and basically what took place and the physical features of our suspect. That information was locked in my desk for almost a year in a file at the police station. I followed up on the information received and reinterviewed the suspect and was able to get a confession. Nancy continued to work with me on several more cases after that. One was a burglary at ther home where a rifle and other items were taken. She was able to point out where I could find a laten print left by a perpetrator which I developed and lifted. She was also able to describe 2 juveniles, where they lived and where they hid the rifle. I investigated further, obtained a search warrant and found the gun. I arrested the 2 juveniles who confessed."

So, if the above account is accurate, that's two cases in which a psychic provided key information to law enforcement personnel that led to the solving of the case.

In the first example, it is quite clear that the police already had a suspect in mind to whom they were not led by the psychic's information. All they did was re-interview him and they got a confession. Did the psychic already know about the suspect the police were already considering? Unclear, but very possible.

The second claim I simply do not believe. The assertion is that the officer was able to get a judge to issue a search warrant based solely on the information provided by the psychic. I am extremely skeptical that would ever happen. If it did, a good lawyer could almost certainly get that search warrant excluded from a trial. Sorry, but I find the stories of this particular law enforcement officer to be highly dubious.

Wait, this isn't the cop who later married the psychic, is it?

 

[Garrette]

The second claim I simply do not believe. The assertion is that the officer was able to get a judge to issue a search warrant based solely on the information provided by the psychic. I am extremely skeptical that would ever happen. If it did, a good lawyer could almost certainly get that search warrant excluded from a trial. Sorry, but I find the stories of this particular law enforcement officer to be highly dubious.

I hand't considered this, but I agree.

Wait, this isn't the cop who later married the psychic, is it?

I didn't know this happened. It may well be, because if you go to the website and read the rest of the letter, English tells about when he moved to North Carolina and Weber came down to help him with his prostate cancer....

Sounds like a budding relationship.

 

[Garrette]

For the lurkers out there, I recommend you consider why Rodney and the others who believe in Weber and her like do not ask these questions or do this research. Were they truly interested in demonstrating the phenomenon exists, they would scrutinize it both to prove it and to weed out the fraudsters.

Yet they don't. They take a claim and propagate it, banking that few skeptics will make the effort to investigate it (it's not an easy thing to do) and that even if they do, few believers will heed that part.

 

[Beady]

The assertion is that the officer was able to get a judge to issue a search warrant based solely on the information provided by the psychic. I am extremely skeptical that would ever happen. If it did, a good lawyer could almost certainly get that search warrant excluded from a trial.

The search warrant? Hell, a good lawyer could get just about everything thrown out that was said by a cop who admitted under oath that he acted on the advice of a psychic. "Probable Cause," if nothing else. That's one reason I would want to see the court transcripts: Even with a confession there's going to be a hearing, and the evidence is going to be examined.

"And what, Officer, was it, exactly, that led you to the defendent?"

 

[Gr8wight]

Wait, this isn't the cop who later married the psychic, is it?

I didn't know this happened. It may well be, because if you go to the website and read the rest of the letter, English tells about when he moved to North Carolina and Weber came down to help him with his prostate cancer....

Sounds like a budding relationship.

I don't know if this is the specific pair or not. I do remember another thread in which it was revealed that a cop who claimed to have been helped by a psychic later married her. I'm just too fat and lazy to go looking for it.

 

[Rodney]

I have emailed the North Carolina Public Defender’s Office for verification of English’ time there and the Mount Olive Police Department for verification of his time there along with details of the cases English mentions.

And I just emailed polygraph expert Jerry Lewis. I invited him to respond here, if he chooses.

 

[Garrette]

And I just emailed polygraph expert Jerry Lewis. I invited him to respond here, if he chooses.

Excellent. I may have to retract my comment to the lurkers (and I'll be happy to do so if needed).

I think it might be appropriate if Mr. Lewis posts here to ask him his current stance on polygraphs. I found his comment about being wrong only once rather intriguing.

 

[Gr8wight]

And I just emailed polygraph expert Jerry Lewis. I invited him to respond here, if he chooses.

I'm sorry. Maybe I've missed something here. What, exactly, does a polygraph "expert" have to do with anything?

Rodney, you do know that there's a reason why polygraph results are inadmissible in a court of law, don't you?

 

[Ducky]

And I just emailed polygraph expert Jerry Lewis. I invited him to respond here, if he chooses.

Let's hope he's not too busy with a Muscular Dystrophy Association telethon.

 

[Rodney]

I'm sorry. Maybe I've missed something here. What, exactly, does a polygraph "expert" have to do with anything?

You apparently missed my post #17, which includes a link to Nancy Weber's website. The first testimonial there is from polygraph expert Jerry Lewis, who states that he retired after 25 years of service with the New Jersey State Police.

Rodney, you do know that there's a reason why polygraph results are inadmissible in a court of law, don't you?

Yes, but as Garrette notes, it would be interesting to get his perspective, both on polygraphs and the accuracy of the information provided by Nancy Weber.

 

[Garrette]

Update on my emails:

For the Mt. Olive Police Department, I must forward a hard copy Open Public Records Act request. I'll do that today or tomorrow, though it may be a slow go as I have no specific information to go on regarding the crimes themselves.

Regarding his time in North Carolina, here is the relevant portion of the email I received (note that there are many Public Defender's Offices in NC, and since the specific one is not mentioned, I emailed the state level):

Here's the information that I could come up with immediately. Our office, the Capital Defender's Office, did not exist until 2001. We do have in house investigators that are hired state employees. However, attorneys who represent indigent clients in North Carolina apply for funds to hire private investigators of their choosing. Ross English has been hired as a private invesetigator in some capital cases by attorneys on the capital roster.

As to whether or not he ever worked for ANY public defender's office in North Carolina, that I do not know. There are many public defenders offices in the state, usually broken down by county... Since that was some time ago, I'm not sure how easy that information would be to get.

She also gave me the mailing address (a Post Office Box) and phone number for Mr. English's private investigation company. I will contact him today or tomorrow also.

 

[Garrette]

Yes, but as Garrette notes, it would be interesting to get his perspective, both on polygraphs and the accuracy of the information provided by Nancy Weber.

To be fair, my expression of interest was along the lines of "he can't really still believe that, can he?" And I have little faith that he will provide verifiable information.

But, as always, I'm quite prepared to be wrong.

 

[Rodney]

Update on my emails:

For the Mt. Olive Police Department, I must forward a hard copy Open Public Records Act request. I'll do that today or tomorrow, though it may be a slow go as I have no specific information to go on regarding the crimes themselves.

Regarding his time in North Carolina, here is the relevant portion of the email I received (note that there are many Public Defender's Offices in NC, and since the specific one is not mentioned, I emailed the state level):

She also gave me the mailing address (a Post Office Box) and phone number for Mr. English's private investigation company. I will contact him today or tomorrow also.

I haven't heard back yet from Mr. Lewis. But here is another interesting link, which indicates that in 1988 a psychic provided some remarkably accurate information in a girl's abduction, but despite that, the case was never solved: http://www.phoenixvillenews.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17781519&BRD=1673&PAG=461&dept_id=17915&rfi=6

Excerpt: "After days of searches by hundreds of people, Philadelphia psychic Valerie Morrison provided what many hoped might be a pivotal break in the case. The psychic claimed to have had a vision of where the little girl had been just days before. The description Morrison provided of the location she 'saw' matched what investigators discovered on the property of John French. Morrison spoke of seeing a red barn, something orange and a sequence of numbers. She also heard dogs barking. She contacted police to tell them that, although she couldn't provide an exact location of the barn, she knew that Lauren had been inside. Search parties combed the area until they found a red barn matching the description given by Morrison. Inside was a car covered by an orange tarp. The sequence of numbers Morrison had provided to police was on the license plate of that vehicle and, at a nearby home, there were three dogs - two of them were barking.

On Friday, Oct. 7, 1988, Morrison was shepherded around the township in a van with shaded windows, then transported to the barn by the Army National Guard. When search dogs were brought to the area near French's property, they picked up Lauren's scent trail, which led them directly to the barn. The trail ended there."

 

[desertyeti]

Part of the problem is that anyone can show up at a police station, or track down witnesses, and then claim to be involved with the case. At least one forensic artist has done just that, and then listed this on a resume. The case is mentioned in the book "Forensic Art and Illustration" by Karen T. Taylor.

So figuring out who does what can be tricky or impossible (just what the woos love).

 

[Mojo]

In a July 2006 interview, Morrison said that she had the opportunity to speak with Christina about Lauren in 1988.
"Because of the way I work with people, I interrogated the mother nicely because I thought I could get more from her," Morrison said.

 

[Beth]

I investigated further, obtained a search warrant and found the gun. I arrested the 2 juveniles who confessed."

The second claim I simply do not believe. The assertion is that the officer was able to get a judge to issue a search warrant based solely on the information provided by the psychic. I am extremely skeptical that would ever happen. If it did, a good lawyer could almost certainly get that search warrant excluded from a trial. Sorry, but I find the stories of this particular law enforcement officer to be highly dubious.

I read this as the officer did further investigation based on the information the psychic provided and presumably got the search warrant based on the results of his investigation, not the information the psychic provided. That doesn't make the story true, but I don't think you can dismiss it for the reason you've given.

 

[Garrette]

In addition to what Mojo posted about Rodney's new example, there is this from the linked article:

French said he had spoken with Morrison on the telephone before she arrived in the area, and she provided him with visual "clues" that helped identify the property she had seen in her vision, including seeing water in a ditch.
French told Morrison about a drainage ditch that had been dug around the barn by the previous owner.
At the time, Morrison requested that her involvement be secret, but when a month went by without anyone finding a trace of Lauren, Morrison went on the "People Are Talking" show on Philadelphia's KYW-TV to talk about the case.

So Lewis spoke with both the mother and the barn owner prior to showing up. The barn owner admits to providing information. Lewis admits the mother was disoriented which is perfect for obtaining information.

Sorry, Rodney. I'm not chasing that goose, too.