Jogging in Georgia while black.

[pgwenthold]

But in this case there is no functional difference to any outside observer between what happened and the two men just running down a random black guy the saw on the street and "No wait we thought he was a burglar" does sound like the kind of story you'd make up after the fact.

As I said, the only functional difference between this and a 1950s lynching is that they accused him of being a burgler and not raping a white woman.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Self-defense against a guy that they are chasing down the road in their pickup?

"'The best defense is a good offense,' you know said that? Mel, the cook on Alice." - Ed Gruberman, Tawe Kwan Leap

If you intend to confront someone you believe to be a criminal burglar you believe you have seen flash a weapon in his pants on a previous day, bringing your firearm in case they don't react so well to being told "stop here, the police are on their way" seems entirely reasonable.

So too does shooting them dead if they launch at you and start punching and grabbing your gun.

 

[JoeMorgue]

As I said, the only functional difference between this and a 1950s lynching is that they accused him of being a burgler and not raping a white woman.

Like seriously at this point just go ahead and sell the posts cards. If you're going to be 1920s racists at least respect the traditions.

 

[lobosrul5]

If you intend to confront someone you believe to be a criminal burglar you believe you have seen flash a weapon in his pants on a previous day, bringing your firearm in case they don't react so well to being told "stop here, the police are on their way" seems entirely reasonable.

So too does shooting them dead if they launch at you and start punching and grabbing your gun.

Pointing a shotgun at someone is assault with a deadly weapon. A felony. In a stand your ground state (which Georgia is) you are then perfectly entitled to attack them with any weapon you see fit.

 

[Darat]

I said during the Amber Guyver case that she was 100% guilty and I totally believed her story (mainly because I thought it was too convoluted to bother making up and if she had pre-planned to murder him and lie about it later there was a thousand more believable stories she could have used)

But in this case there is no functional difference to any outside observer between what happened and the two men just running down a random black guy the saw on the street and "No wait we thought he was a burglar" does sound like the kind of story you'd make up after the fact.

Not that at matters since even we take their story at face value they are guilty.
None of the facts that actually matter are in dispute.

That is the terrifying thing about this, their statements clearly showed a crime had happened yet the decision was to not prosecute until the video came out.

 

[Darat]

If you intend to confront someone you believe to be a criminal burglar you believe you have seen flash a weapon in his pants on a previous day, bringing your firearm in case they don't react so well to being told "stop here, the police are on their way" seems entirely reasonable.

So too does shooting them dead if they launch at you and start punching and grabbing your gun.

They didn't.

They decided to chase after someone.

 

[Arcade22]

This is one I disagree with. When I was in the Navy we (submarine force) were taught to use escalation as a means of keeping the ship safe. Verbal orders, then brandishing, then using actual force.

Brandishing was something that happened prior to actually pulling the trigger. It was a matter of relaxing if the threat went away or escalating further if the threat kept coming towards us.

There are two major things to consider:

If one makes it easier and quicker to be able to use physical force, up to and including lethal force, that makes it easier to use said force accidentally or otherwise when it would be excessive. If you pull a gun you are one stage closer to shooting than if you had left it in your holster.

Moreover, implicitly or explicitly threatening someone with the usage of physical force can make it more likely that physical force is used than if one had refrained from such threats. Making threats often leads to an escalation in the use of force, because some people do not respond positively to them.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Pointing a shotgun at someone is assault with a deadly weapon. A felony. In a stand your ground state (which Georgia is) you are then perfectly entitled to attack them with any weapon you see fit.

I'm reminded, yet again, of the Amber Guyver thread where her biggest cheerleaders spent the entire thread accidently 100% proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jean would have been 100% justified in shooting Guyver.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Pointing a shotgun at someone is assault with a deadly weapon. A felony. In a stand your ground state (which Georgia is) you are then perfectly entitled to attack them with any weapon you see fit.

Can you point out where in the video they point gun(s) at him prior to him attacking them?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Can you point out where in the video they point gun(s) at him prior to him attacking them?

"The black guy didn't even have the common decency of waiting until the white people pointed the gun at him before getting all uppity and angry!"

Stunning. Simply stunning. And that's even assuming that's true because I don't feel like going back to the watch the video to check because it doesn't matter.

When you roll up on someone just out for a job with weapons, you don't become the problem only after you point them at him.

 

[Arcade22]

If you intend to confront someone you believe to be a criminal burglar you believe you have seen flash a weapon in his pants on a previous day, bringing your firearm in case they don't react so well to being told "stop here, the police are on their way" seems entirely reasonable.

In a civilized society with institutionalized law-enforcement there are people specifically tasked with investigating crimes and apprehending suspected criminals, especially if they are potentially armed and dangerous.

This is a case-book example of why taking the law into your own hands is a bad idea, especially since the "suspected criminal" in this case would be completely within his right to use lethal force to defend himself.

 

[Meadmaker]

Can you point out where in the video they point gun(s) at him prior to him attacking them?

Travis raised the gun at him after he (Travis) exited the vehicle and was standing next to the driver's side door. Someone posted the appropriate frame earlier in the thread.

It also appeared to me that the elder McMichael raised his gun toward him at the same time, but the video is too grainy to be sure. He might be holding a cell phone or a squirrel instead.


What color are squirrels in Georgia? That thing in the road looks black to me. Do they have black squirrels in Georgia? I grew up in Illinois, and I never saw a black squirrel until I moved to Detroit.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

In a civilized society with institutionalized law-enforcement there are people specifically tasked with investigating crimes and apprehending suspected criminals, especially if they are potentially armed and dangerous.

This is a case-book example of why taking the law into your own hands is a bad idea, especially since the "suspected criminal" in this case would be completely within his right to use lethal force to defend himself.

Help me understand.

If it's legal in Georgia to open carry firearms, and it's legal in Georgia to approach another citizen, and it's legal in Georgia even to perform citizens' arrests... then how can any combination of these actions constitute legal basis for you "defending yourself" by launching a physical assault against someone doing any combination of those things?

 

[JoeMorgue]

If it's legal in Georgia to open carry firearms, and it's legal in Georgia to approach another citizen, and it's legal in Georgia even to perform citizens' arrests... then how can any combination of these actions constitute legal basis for you "defending yourself" by launching a physical assault against someone doing any combination of those things?

Because that makes murder legal.

All you have to do is find a black person, say (with no evidence needed) that you think they are a suspect in a crime (and the crime doesn't even have to have happened), shove a gun in their face, and then shoot them.

 

[Disbelief]

Help me understand.

If it's legal in Georgia to open carry firearms, and it's legal in Georgia to approach another citizen, and it's legal in Georgia even to perform citizens' arrests... then how can any combination of these actions constitute legal basis for you "defending yourself" by launching a physical assault against someone doing any combination of those things?

Because having open carry does not mean you can threaten with a gun and the "criminal" has actually not committed a criminal act. Pointing the gun is a threat, so he would be within his legal rights to defend himself. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Travis raised the gun at him after he (Travis) exited the vehicle and was standing next to the driver's side door. Someone posted the appropriate frame earlier in the thread.

It also appeared to me that the elder McMichael raised his gun toward him at the same time, but the video is too grainy to be sure. He might be holding a cell phone or a squirrel instead.


What color are squirrels in Georgia? That thing in the road looks black to me. Do they have black squirrels in Georgia? I grew up in Illinois, and I never saw a black squirrel until I moved to Detroit.

I'm wondering if this was already at the point where he'd started charging at them. Sadly we are getting video from another vehicle, a fair ways behind the event, and some of the most important moments are lost to bad phone handling or involved parties being obscured by the truck, etc.

I strongly suspect the guns were raised in reaction, not the other way around.

I don't think Ahmoud felt himself to be a stalkee or lynching target or poor put upon victim of racist KKK white inbred southern hick redneck Trump MAGA supporters at any time. I think his self perception was 100% that of "I am a criminal and I am in danger of being held accountable for thieving"

 

[JoeMorgue]

And we're fully in the racist's favorite trench. "If only the black guy had done X he'd still be alive."

 

[lobosrul5]

Help me understand.

If it's legal in Georgia to open carry firearms, and it's legal in Georgia to approach another citizen, and it's legal in Georgia even to perform citizens' arrests... then how can any combination of these actions constitute legal basis for you "defending yourself" by launching a physical assault against someone doing any combination of those things?

First of all, citizens arrest in Georgia:

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge.

No crime was committed in their presence that I can tell.

If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

Second clause of the law. OK, so say he did trespass in a construction zone, and lets say your right for some bizarre reason he walked off with a hammer. Neither of those constitutes a felony.

Citizens arrest is still really dumb for many reasons, but it doesn't appear that Georgia's law even applies anyways.

https://law.justia.com/codes/georgi...XVqHsmUmbBnMoIz0sVQFYv8KGwTL-zA20ruYIyjgnTLIU

 

[lomiller]

What I find amusing is that people who argue that it’s ok to shoot unarmed assailants have a problem with punching armed assailants. Of course we all really know the deal, what they really think is that it’s ok to shoot the black guy if he gets out of line and refuses to do what white people tell him to do.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I think his self perception was 100% that of "I am a criminal and I am in danger of being held accountable for thieving"

I'd love to know how you came to this conclusion since the shooters lied about the crime wave they were supposedly defending themselves from even happening.