Joe Wilson Today

normdoering said:
Don't get too down about that. Things are slowly changing. Cracks seem to be opening all over the neocon universe. The press is beginning to feel somewhat empowered, there is more hope now that Bush will go down- one way or another. The polls are saying the majority of American people no longer trust him like they use to. And in 2006, a shift in power may occur.

No doubt you are correct. I admit that the lengths some Republicans will go to excuse malfeasance on the part of their leaders is rather frustrating. But I think you are correct that the press are starting to find their nads again. Now if we can just get the Democrats to grow a collective spine, things might actually start to improve.
 
Oh, I beg of you - sick Dean on Bush again. The more that guy speaks, the better the prospects look for the GOP.
 
crackmonkey said:
Oh, I beg of you - sick Dean on Bush again. The more that guy speaks, the better the prospects look for the GOP.

Question: does it bother you at all that Bush and Rove and McClellan lied about all this right to your face for 2 years?

Doesn't that bother you at all?
 
I have no idea that they lied about it, and neither do you. Perhaps Rove lied to them, perhaps not. Then again, perhaps Rove wasn't the 'leaker' at all... according to the NYT, Rove was told of Plame's identity by another journalist. If Rove wasn;t behind the disclosure of her identity, I'd be absolutely howling with laughter. Rove, allowing the Dems to make utter fools of themselves again? Oh, the hilarity...

http://nytimes.com/2005/07/15/polit...=1121400000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print
 
crackmonkey said:
I have no idea that they lied about it, and neither do you. Perhaps Rove lied to them, perhaps not. Then again, perhaps Rove wasn't the 'leaker' at all... according to the NYT, Rove was told of Plame's identity by another journalist. If Rove wasn;t behind the disclosure of her identity, I'd be absolutely howling with laughter. Rove, allowing the Dems to make utter fools of themselves again? Oh, the hilarity...

http://nytimes.com/2005/07/15/polit...=1121400000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

Oh, of course they lied. But I guess it really doesn't bother you; I am not surprised. I was just curious.

But why would you even care of it turned out Rove didn't do it (talk about hilarity)? In your view, even if he did it, he didn't. Besides, if he ends up convicted, Bush will give him a f******g medal and you will applaud.
 
crackmonkey said:
You sound bitter...
Chin up. I'm sure you can glom into some other scandal soon.

Frustrated more than bitter at my fellow citizens on the Right and their willing blindness.

Oh, but don't worry, this scandal ain't going away any time soon. Then there is the whole Halliburton fiasco, and the record deficits, and a half dozen other extreme examples of Republican malfeasance. I'll be entertained for quite some time!
 
crackmonkey said:
Oh, I beg of you - sick Dean on Bush again. The more that guy speaks, the better the prospects look for the GOP.
If you've ever listened to the man speak, you wouldn't be begging.
 
I think it is overdue that we looked into Wilson's motives with greater scrutiny. It is only fair since Wilson has had much criticism of Rove's motives and news services have been so eager to help him in this quest.

... It hardly seems credible that Wilson could have single-handedly investigated every aspect of the Niger-Iraq connection spending "eight days drinking sweet mint tea" and talking to people. If Niamey were nurturing such a relationship with Baghdad it surely would have been highly secretive. Uranium trade with Iraq was illegal after all; you could not expect to get a straight answer from anyone involved in it. Moreover, the wounds of 9/11 were still fresh, and this was only a few months after Coalition forces had swiftly overthrown the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. What country was going to freely admit to selling illegal WMD material to the only ruler in the world who openly praised the attacks on the Twin Towers? As noted, Wilson came away with no evidence that the 1999 uranium sale had taken place. But over the last few months, particularly since Wilson's New York Times piece, this very narrow finding has been taken as proof that Iraq never even tried to obtain uranium. That was not the question Wilson was sent to Niger to answer, and his investigation certainly never came close to being that thorough. Yet the press reflexively cites this brief visit as the basis for the definitive answer on the entire Niger uranium controversy. Wilson's purported influence has been inflated to the point where otherwise sensible people (and some not-so) are alleging that the inner circles of the White House had to resort to felonious leaking to discredit him.

The Honorable Mr. Wilson

Wilson went on after this to become, as corplinx is fond of saying, a shill, for John Kerry.
 
Batman Jr. said:
If you've ever listened to the man speak, you wouldn't be begging.

Quite true: a very bright guy, who doesn't pull his punches.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe Wilson Today

corplinx said:
It matters a great deal whether or not he used her name and job status with Matt Cooper.

Here's 5 statements:

Wilson's wife got him his job.

It doesn't mention his wife's name (which could be different than Wilson) and doesn't mention where she works.

Wilson's wife works at the CIA and got him the job.

Here "Plame" is not named nor is it acknowledged that she is an undercover op. It is the equivalent of saying "Tenet got him the job".

Valerie Plame who is Wilson's wife and works at the CIA got him the job.

The only thing compromised is her name which means she would have to use a false name for future undercover operations if she went back into field work. Did she use her real name in the field? Need more info.

In lieu of there not being a crime committed, the only offense I would oust Rove over is naming her directly since she didn't go by Valerie Wilson.
So how does this distinguish the consequences between naming her and identifying her as "Wilson's wife"? You think that because her last name isn't Wilson that people would be too stupid to figure out who she was? You think that Joe kept his marriage a secret or something!?

Statement two is wrong, because it is disclosed in the e-mail that Rove revealed that she worked at the CIA.
Matt Cooper's Letter to Bureau Chief
It was, KR said, wilson's wife, who apparently works at the agency on wmd [weapons of mass destruction] issues who authorized the trip.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe Wilson Today

Batman Jr. said:

Statement two is wrong, because it is disclosed in the e-mail that Rove revealed that she worked at the CIA.

I presented a variety of statements and related the impact of each. I didn't indicate which was the closest to what Rove said. You're reading a bit too much into this. It reveals much about the filter your reading with though.


I think what you and Upchurch are proving is that there are some people who can't accept evidence thus far and want to believe the speculation too much.

Remember, Rove might have committed a crime but thus far based on the evidence, I'm not seeing it.

And now the people burned by this are playing a shellgame with words, pushing goalposts, etc, etc.

The "valerie plame affair" that moveon et al have been harping on for a few years is hinged on this. Did a senior administration official knowingly out an undercover CIA operative. What the evidence (the evidence we have) shows is that this is not the case. So now you axe grinders are rephrasing it and pushing the posts.

Its time as a skeptic to say that the evidence isn't there.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joe Wilson Today

corplinx said:
The "valerie plame affair" that moveon et al have been harping on for a few years is hinged on this. Did a senior administration official knowingly out an undercover CIA operative. What the evidence (the evidence we have) shows is that this is not the case. So now you axe grinders are rephrasing it and pushing the posts.
I didn't rephrase anything. Given the revelations Cooper's e-mail provides, Rove's weird remark about Plame being "fair game" over the telephone to Chris Matthews and the administration and Rove's reluctance to be forthright with the truth of what happened all of this time in the place of honest concern to set the record straight in the eyes of the public, things appear to add up to Rove probably having done this on purpose. I'm sorry, but I just can't feasibly see the situation in any other way.
 
You serious? So, Rove was sitting by the phone, waiting for journalists to call him and bring up the yellowcake story (as happened with Cooper) so he could say "Don't tell anyone, but Wilson's wife works at the CIA"? How... Machiavellilan. And stupid, frankly... if he wanted to get the word out, there would be far more efficient ways to do it than to wait for reporters to call him. Also, according to the NYT, Rove wasn't the original leaker anyway - some other journalist suggested the name first... Novak then asked Rove about it, and Rove said he'd heard that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.
 
normdoering said:
There was nothing in your article link but talk of Karl Rove. If the meeting was about something other than Rove, the writer didn't care about it.

Which is exactly, precisely, totally, my point.

Expand your horizons.
 
Mark said:
Frustrated more than bitter at my fellow citizens on the Right and their willing blindness.

Oh, but don't worry, this scandal ain't going away any time soon. Then there is the whole Halliburton fiasco, and the record deficits, and a half dozen other extreme examples of Republican malfeasance. I'll be entertained for quite some time!

Spoken like a true believer. "Of course they lied! If we don't nail him on this, it'll be something else! HALIBURTON!!" etc. etc.

Have another glass of Kool Aid.
 
Batman Jr. said:
If you've ever listened to the man speak, you wouldn't be begging.

He's a little hard to understand, what with his tongue fighting with his Florsheims for space all the time.
 
Batman Jr. said:
If you've ever listened to the man speak, you wouldn't be begging.

I've listened, carefully infact.

If I were a far-left democrat, I'd agree. As a fairly conservative independent, I welcome his every word.

Go, Dean, Go!
 
Jocko said:
Spoken like a true believer. "Of course they lied! If we don't nail him on this, it'll be something else! HALIBURTON!!" etc. etc.

Have another glass of Kool Aid.

I get it...none of that bothers you. And yet I am the "true believer." Must be nice to have such utter, religious faith in your heroes. For those of us who prefer to think for ourselves, it is more problematic...
 

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