Rincewind
Philosopher
I recently had a visit from two ladies.
It turned out that they were from the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Sadly, as I had just returned from a trip to the USA, and a long drive from Heathrow to get home, I really wasn’t in the mood for disputing religious beliefs. Normally, I might have enjoyed the experience!
However, we did have a brief chat, and I noticed that they were very quick to change the subject whenever I made a point. We did talk a little about the Garden of Eden before I had to drop out for sleep, and they gave me a Watchtower, that “explains what really happened”.
Well, I’ve had a look at it and would like to solicit your comments (especially from the Christians amongst us) about my interpretation of their story.
To start with, I should probably say that I don’t believe it ever happened. My view is that it’s a badly-written piece of religious “control-freakery” designed by priests.
So, back to the Watchtower…
It actually starts by suggesting that because God has omniscience, he would have known what was about to happen, but let it go ahead regardless. It continues by admitting that such an occurrence would label God as unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel and even foolish.
OK – so far so good – I can actually accept these assumptions!
I assume they’re actually aiming at setting up a premise so that they can triumphantly destroy it later in the article.
The question is… how will they extricate themselves from the corner that they’ve backed themselves into?
Well – apparently, God can turn His omnis on and off at will, so when He went for His stroll in the Garden, He must have been in a foreknowledge-free state. Therefore, the actions of His children came as a complete surprise to Him. Yes – that’s what is written!
So – here’s my take on this frankly astonishing bit of news…
If He’s going to switch His magic off/on, then it’s clearly important for Him to know when to do this – especially when to restart it. For example, let’s assume for a bizarre moment, that God doesn’t want to know what my Sunday breakfast will be. Let’s also assume that when I go to bed on Saturday, I think I’ll go to Macdonald’s for Sunday breakfast, feeling a distinct lack of processed, greasy food. Mind you, I happen to be woken up early on Sunday by very heavy rain dashing against the window, so decide to go back to sleep, and have some toast later. At about 09:00, however, the sun’s out so I get in the car and go visit Ronald.
Clearly, to avoid knowledge of my breakfast choice, God must switch off for Saturday evening, and until maybe 10:00 on Sunday. If He does this, though, He’ll still have effective foreknowledge of my choice when I get stomach cramps on Sunday evening, blaming this on the morning’s cheeseburger. So without knowing how for how long the effects of my decision will last, He must decide when He can switch back on again – or leave His magic off permanently…. Consequently, He needs foreknowledge of which bits of foreknowledge He needs to disable!
What I mean is - if at the moment, He knows that ”X” is going to happen in 10 years time, and “Y” in 12, by switching off the magic between 9 and 11 years, He’ll “forget” “X” until it actually happens, but will continue to know when “Y” will occur. The question – and problem for apologists - is how could He know to just switch off between 9 and 11 years ahead?
To start with, He claims to have created absolutely everything, and it’s all good (Guinness – various verses). So at that point, having created ALL things - and calling them good, He must know everything.
If, then, He doesn’t want to know what the decision regarding eating the fruit will be, He’ll need to switch off before it happens – but, how can He know when to stop/start His senses?
Let’s face it – if the events in the Garden are true – then we’re still suffering from the effects, and apparently this will last forever. So, even if God switches off for gazillions of years, He’d still realise what must have happened. You see, as mentioned earlier, He must have foreknowledge of stuff that happens after He comes back online – and that would have to include the effects of the Garden of Eden “unpleasantness”, wouldn’t it? He’ll know that He’s going to be the biggest Jerk ever, and the worst possible parent – after all, good parenting involved teaching, protecting and allowing children to learn, especially by doing - and failing. Implicit in good parenting is the granting of second-, third- and more chances (as required), and the continuing explanation of good and bad. Without this knowledge, A&E cannot be blamed for making a wrong choice.
Therefore, the only way God could never know what happened is if He switches off His foreknowledge permanently. This, of course, might explain why He was apparently surprised regularly in the Old Testament.
So – for me, astonishingly enough, the initial paragraphs of the article in the Watchtower seem to have been proven and their attempt at explanation has failed, but I’ll be interested in any comments you might have…
It turned out that they were from the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Sadly, as I had just returned from a trip to the USA, and a long drive from Heathrow to get home, I really wasn’t in the mood for disputing religious beliefs. Normally, I might have enjoyed the experience!
However, we did have a brief chat, and I noticed that they were very quick to change the subject whenever I made a point. We did talk a little about the Garden of Eden before I had to drop out for sleep, and they gave me a Watchtower, that “explains what really happened”.
Well, I’ve had a look at it and would like to solicit your comments (especially from the Christians amongst us) about my interpretation of their story.
To start with, I should probably say that I don’t believe it ever happened. My view is that it’s a badly-written piece of religious “control-freakery” designed by priests.
So, back to the Watchtower…
It actually starts by suggesting that because God has omniscience, he would have known what was about to happen, but let it go ahead regardless. It continues by admitting that such an occurrence would label God as unloving, unjust, insincere, cruel and even foolish.
OK – so far so good – I can actually accept these assumptions!
I assume they’re actually aiming at setting up a premise so that they can triumphantly destroy it later in the article.
The question is… how will they extricate themselves from the corner that they’ve backed themselves into?
Well – apparently, God can turn His omnis on and off at will, so when He went for His stroll in the Garden, He must have been in a foreknowledge-free state. Therefore, the actions of His children came as a complete surprise to Him. Yes – that’s what is written!
So – here’s my take on this frankly astonishing bit of news…
If He’s going to switch His magic off/on, then it’s clearly important for Him to know when to do this – especially when to restart it. For example, let’s assume for a bizarre moment, that God doesn’t want to know what my Sunday breakfast will be. Let’s also assume that when I go to bed on Saturday, I think I’ll go to Macdonald’s for Sunday breakfast, feeling a distinct lack of processed, greasy food. Mind you, I happen to be woken up early on Sunday by very heavy rain dashing against the window, so decide to go back to sleep, and have some toast later. At about 09:00, however, the sun’s out so I get in the car and go visit Ronald.
Clearly, to avoid knowledge of my breakfast choice, God must switch off for Saturday evening, and until maybe 10:00 on Sunday. If He does this, though, He’ll still have effective foreknowledge of my choice when I get stomach cramps on Sunday evening, blaming this on the morning’s cheeseburger. So without knowing how for how long the effects of my decision will last, He must decide when He can switch back on again – or leave His magic off permanently…. Consequently, He needs foreknowledge of which bits of foreknowledge He needs to disable!
What I mean is - if at the moment, He knows that ”X” is going to happen in 10 years time, and “Y” in 12, by switching off the magic between 9 and 11 years, He’ll “forget” “X” until it actually happens, but will continue to know when “Y” will occur. The question – and problem for apologists - is how could He know to just switch off between 9 and 11 years ahead?
To start with, He claims to have created absolutely everything, and it’s all good (Guinness
– various verses). So at that point, having created ALL things - and calling them good, He must know everything. If, then, He doesn’t want to know what the decision regarding eating the fruit will be, He’ll need to switch off before it happens – but, how can He know when to stop/start His senses?
Let’s face it – if the events in the Garden are true – then we’re still suffering from the effects, and apparently this will last forever. So, even if God switches off for gazillions of years, He’d still realise what must have happened. You see, as mentioned earlier, He must have foreknowledge of stuff that happens after He comes back online – and that would have to include the effects of the Garden of Eden “unpleasantness”, wouldn’t it? He’ll know that He’s going to be the biggest Jerk ever, and the worst possible parent – after all, good parenting involved teaching, protecting and allowing children to learn, especially by doing - and failing. Implicit in good parenting is the granting of second-, third- and more chances (as required), and the continuing explanation of good and bad. Without this knowledge, A&E cannot be blamed for making a wrong choice.
Therefore, the only way God could never know what happened is if He switches off His foreknowledge permanently. This, of course, might explain why He was apparently surprised regularly in the Old Testament.
So – for me, astonishingly enough, the initial paragraphs of the article in the Watchtower seem to have been proven and their attempt at explanation has failed, but I’ll be interested in any comments you might have…
