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I've Moved To Mac

CFLarsen said:
Color is the only visual clue until the user acts.

Bad usability.
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So now it's "until the user acts"? Before it was "never use color as the only visual clue". I call "moving the goalposts" on you.

Mystery meat navigation is not restricted to links
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According to the man who coined the term it is.

Mystery meat navigation (also abbreviated MMN) is a term coined and popularized by author, web designer, and usability analyst Vincent Flanders to describe user interfaces (especially in websites) in which it is inordinately difficult for users to discern the destinations of navigational hyperlinks—or, in severe cases, even to determine where the hyperlinks are. The typical form of MMN is represented by menus composed of unrevealing icons that are replaced with explicative text only when the mouse cursor hovers over them.

I'll take Vincent Flanders' intent of the term he coined over yours.
 
HarryKeogh said:
So now it's "until the user acts"? Before it was "never use color as the only visual clue". I call "moving the goalposts" on you.
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*sigh*

No, it isn't moving the goalposts. I am describing events. Color is the only visual clue. When the user places the mouse over the button, it shows an icon.

HarryKeogh said:
According to the man who coined the term it is.

Mystery meat navigation (also abbreviated MMN) is a term coined and popularized by author, web designer, and usability analyst Vincent Flanders to describe user interfaces (especially in websites) in which it is inordinately difficult for users to discern the destinations of navigational hyperlinks—or, in severe cases, even to determine where the hyperlinks are. The typical form of MMN is represented by menus composed of unrevealing icons that are replaced with explicative text only when the mouse cursor hovers over them.

I'll take Vincent Flanders' intent of the term he coined over yours.
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Try to read what it says:

The typical form of MMN is represented by menus composed of unrevealing icons that are replaced with explicative text only when the mouse cursor hovers over them.
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That's exactly what is described above: Unrevealing icon (red button), replaced with more information (symbol) when mouseover.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
 
But they're still talking about hyperlinks, Claus.

Instead of saying I have no idea what I'm talking about just be thankful you learned two new things in this thread. You make your living with computing. This information can be useful to you some day. C'mon, man. Get with it.
 
HarryKeogh said:
But they're still talking about hyperlinks, Claus.
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It's the principle.

HarryKeogh said:
Instead of saying I have no idea what I'm talking about just be thankful you learned two new things in this thread. You make your living with computing. This information can be useful to you some day. C'mon, man. Get with it.
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I make my living doing usability and user interface design, yes. And have been for almost 20 years.

That's why I can confidently say (again): You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
I'm still not hearing specific reasons why people prefer Macs.

~~ Paul
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I use both and for the level of computing I do they pretty much are the same crap to me. Both have pros and cons but a few things I do like about the Mac are the lack of viruses (partially due to their security and partially due to their small user base and not being a focus of bad guys). I've yet to meet someone who has had their Mac harmed by a virus.

I like the fact that out of the box I could surf the web without pop-ups and without spyware invading my computer.

Also the oldest Mac that can run the latest Mac OS is eight years old. What's the oldest PC that can run Vista? A year or two? So Macs can be cheaper in the long run if you want to keep up with the latest OS(especially desktop models which are comparable in price to desktop PCs. I admit the notebooks seem overpriced)
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
I'm still not hearing specific reasons why people prefer Macs.

~~ Paul
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Once you've tried Mac, you'll never go back! ;)


It's fairly simple, Paul. They work straight out of the box, do what they say on the brochure without any fuss, and don't require an advanced degree in cybernetics or a course in geekese to own and operate. They are great for people for whom the computer is a tool, not an end in itself.

The downside, of course, is that getting them to do geek stuff is somewhat more difficult, because geek access is not IN the box! Also, WYPIWYG - what you PAY...
 
HarryKeogh said:
Basically, my question is why doesn't the red button close the program instead of just closing the window. Is there a benefit to this I'm not seeing.
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It's the same benefit as with any MDI (multiple document interface) approach. Microsoft's MS-Office uses one main window frame that contains the menu bar; and zero to many MDI sub-windows that contain documents. You can close the document windows pressing Alt+"-", then choosing "Close". You can quit the app choosing Alt+Space in an analogous way. Of course, there's also Ctrl+F4 vs. Alt+F4 (same thing). And "Close" vs. "Quit" in the File menu.

Now Mac OS hasn't a main window, but a menu bar above all windows on the desktop. Some Mac apps can open multiple documents. These document windows can be closed with Cmd+W or the red button (leftmost, so there's the alternative visual clue besides color: position!). Mac windows also can be minimized pressing Cmd+M or the amber (middle) button. Their size can be "optimized" by clicking at the green (right) button, where the semantics of an "optimal" window size are clearly left to the programmer. :rolleyes:

As with Windows apps, when you close all document windows of a Mac app, the app is still waiting for new documents to be opened. Quitting them is optional, but with Windows you have an ugly, empty gray window, and with a Mac you can see all your other windows as well as (parts of) the desktop.

The idea of doing it this way is to let the user think that she's working with her documents, and not with some proggies that "own" her docs. ;)

Of course, apps like the X Server displaying X processes like documents break that view. OpenOffice still has its own menu bar, whereas NeoOffice uses the Mac menu bar. I've stumbled upon those idiosyncrasies myself oftentimes. I'll better stop here.
 
Menus at the top of the screen are good because you can't overshoot the clickable area vertically. Once you get used to them I think you'll find they are actually much more convenient than the Windows menus.

As for the coloured buttons CFLarsen hates, I agree they are a trifle confusing for some people at first. There are payoffs for doing it the way they do, but it does sacrifice user-friendliness for beginners.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
As for the coloured buttons CFLarsen hates, I agree they are a trifle confusing for some people at first. There are payoffs for doing it the way they do, but it does sacrifice user-friendliness for beginners.
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And that's the crux of the matter: Macs are supposed to be out-of-the-box user-friendly, yet one of the most fundamental functions breaks two of the most basic rules of usability.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
As for the coloured buttons CFLarsen hates, I agree they are a trifle confusing for some people at first. There are payoffs for doing it the way they do, but it does sacrifice user-friendliness for beginners.
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They might be confusing to people that are just starting to use a Mac- I find the Windows system less intuitive. I also find it confusing how you can't quit all Windows programs with the same keystroke (command-Q on Macs).

I'm also currently typing this on an iPhone, a device I personally see as a bit of an Apple victory.
 
And what about that Windows thang about shutting down through a button marked 'Start'? Is that really more intuitive than having a red button for Close, yellow for Minimise and green for Optimise?
 
I'll chime in on a few things...

Why I bought a Mac: Because the last one I had was nigh-indestructible. Also because I'm proficient on both Macs and PCs, but find the Mac desktop much faster and cleaner. I like the little details that make working on my laptop enjoyable, like the nav bar that hides and pops up with big, easy to identify icons that balloon bigger when I mouse over them; the pan & scan screensaver that cycles through my photo collection; the way I can just throw away nearly any CD that comes with my electronics, like how I just plug in my camera for the first time and there's iPhoto, downloading pics and video quickly and organizing them all for me; I like the look of the machine, all crisp white; I like the iSight that came built into the monitor; I like the power cord that attaches magnetically, so every time I trip over the cord I don't cause havoc (effing brilliant!); I like how someone with a really good eye for design made everything work beautifully together visually, all the way down to the box the thing came in; and I like that right now I'm sitting at a picnic table outside a pub working, and a sweet 60-something Jewish man just stopped by to talk about how much he loves his old 12" G3 that's lasted forever, and he doesn't need to upgrade but thinks my MacBook is so cool he might pick one up anyway. (Edited to add: Oh, and the lack of viruses. I forgot to mention those because I give them absolutely zero thought.)

I'm sure someone will be able to pick all those reasons apart and show me the error of my ways (oh save me from my foolishness please!), but who cares, it works for me and I like it.

My complaints: the monitor plug is a mini-DVI and it didn't come with the adapter, so I had to go to the Mac store and pick one up for $15 or so. Bastages!

As far as the red yellow and green buttons go . . . if someone hasn't figured them out in the first 30 seconds of turning on the computer, I fear for his mental health. If that's Mystery Meat Navigation, than so is a stoplight. I mean, why don't they just say STOP, SLOW TO A STOP IF ABLE, and GO AHEAD, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FINE?
 
rebecca said:
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As far as the red yellow and green buttons go . . . if someone hasn't figured them out in the first 30 seconds of turning on the computer, I fear for his mental health. If that's Mystery Meat Navigation, than so is a stoplight. I mean, why don't they just say STOP, SLOW TO A STOP IF ABLE, and GO AHEAD, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FINE?
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Well I did notice in the USA they have "Walk" and "Don't Walk" signs - perhaps you just haven't got round to updating your traffic lights yet.... :p
 
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