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It Get's Better Project

Pauliesonne

Bi Gi
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,687
Hey. I want to know how big this project is getting in terms of national awareness.

How many religous leaders in the US are still insulting LGBT people like this guy : https://secure3.convio.net/hrc/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=945.

Could someone please explain to me why they can't "let up" for even a short period of time? Why can't they see the harm their words create?

...and are these religous people completely beyond redemption? Is there any more hope left that they could see the error of their ways?

Has Obama and Hilary's message done any good?
 
Hey. I want to know how big this project is getting in terms of national awareness.

How many religous leaders in the US are still insulting LGBT people like this guy : https://secure3.convio.net/hrc/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=945.

Could someone please explain to me why they can't "let up" for even a short period of time? Why can't they see the harm their words create?

...and are these religous people completely beyond redemption? Is there any more hope left that they could see the error of their ways?

Has Obama and Hilary's message done any good?

I am continually amazed how ignorant people can be. There are a lot of frightened people that feel they will lose a grip on their way of life if they don't take action to control other peoples way. Imagine if a Christian was told that they could no longer read the bible(which may not be a bad idea). They would feel stripped of their rights.... ok I need to take a deep breath!!
 
As someone in the process of contributing to the project let me just say that, to me, Obama's contribution is NOT welcome. As someone who has gone so far out of his way to continue to enforce the worst of the anti-gay laws in the US such as DOMA and DADT by defending them using the same tired bigoted arguments of the preceding administration even after they lose in court the first time, he's the bully telling us that we're inferior and trying to ensure that it doesn't get better. Mr. "Fierce Advocate" has been a fierce advocate against our rights.
 
How much attention is it getting? Well, as far as I can see, it got some attention in the beginning, but then Lindsay Lohan was back in court, and Snooki did something or other, so....you know.
 
As someone in the process of contributing to the project let me just say that, to me, Obama's contribution is NOT welcome. As someone who has gone so far out of his way to continue to enforce the worst of the anti-gay laws in the US such as DOMA and DADT by defending them using the same tired bigoted arguments of the preceding administration even after they lose in court the first time, he's the bully telling us that we're inferior and trying to ensure that it doesn't get better. Mr. "Fierce Advocate" has been a fierce advocate against our rights.

Yep.

When evaluating Obama we have the "not his fault" column, and the "unforced errors" column:

Not His Fault (Retarded Senate Paralysis):
Health Care
Size of Stimulus
Wall Street Reform
Lack of Environmental Bill
Lack of Immigration Bill

Unforced Errors:
Civil Liberties (extraordinary rendition, state secrets doctrine...etc)
Foreclosure Cluster-****
Strangely conflicting statements on "shovel-ready" projects
And, most disapointingly--this was a slam-dunk--gay rights.

It amazes me that not only did he decide to appeal the California ruling (arguably reasonable) he's CONTINUING ENFORCEMENT OF DADT PENDING THE APPEAL.

He could easily stop enforcing it until a decision was made. Unforced Error.
 
As someone in the process of contributing to the project let me just say that, to me, Obama's contribution is NOT welcome. As someone who has gone so far out of his way to continue to enforce the worst of the anti-gay laws in the US such as DOMA and DADT by defending them using the same tired bigoted arguments of the preceding administration even after they lose in court the first time, he's the bully telling us that we're inferior and trying to ensure that it doesn't get better. Mr. "Fierce Advocate" has been a fierce advocate against our rights.

What are doing as a contribution? Are you upoading a video?

I'm planning on doing that.

I just need the right words and the ability of holding my tears back.

Then again, maybe some honest tears would be a good thing.
 
The true face of the enemy.



Maybe it's helpful to the targets, I don't know, but it won't make a difference to those doing the harassment.

Yeah, that's sort of the point of the campaign. It is directed at those who are being harassed and barely addressing those who are doing the harassing. I have no problem with this. It tells kids in danger that people do care about them, that they are important and well, that it gets better.

It doesn't give the bullies any power, just turns them into faceless non-entities who will inevitably be defeated by inexorable time.
 
Maybe it's helpful to the targets, I don't know, but it won't make a difference to those doing the harassment.
The victims seem to have been Obama's target audience. I think it would be helpful.
 
Did anyone see BD Wong's video. It feel's like he's talking right to you, y'know.

It was up there with Joel Burns' video.
 
I will try to answer your questions. Note that I am a Theist, and my religious beliefs are derived from Christianity. Note also that I resigned my post as church elder earlier this year because the people I served with just would not "get it". Thus, my answers are based on my understanding of 'Fundie' doctrine and traditions.

Could someone please explain to me why they can't "let up" for even a short period of time?
Because they are required to "always" present their views to the world...

"Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the LORD, because you know that your labor in the LORD is not in vain." -- 1 COR 15:58 (NIV)
Why can't they see the harm their words create?
Because they stubbornly adhere to their doctrine, rather than follow God's ordinances of compassion and mercy...

"You warned them to return to your law, but they became arrogant and disobeyed your commands. They sinned against your ordinances, by which a man will live if he obeys them. Stubbornly they turned their backs on you, became stiff-necked and refused to listen." -- NEH 9:29 (NIV)

And...

"But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers." -- JER 7:26 (NIV)
...and are these religious people completely beyond redemption?
No ... I was once like them. It has been a steady process of 'redemption' over the past few years, and I still have a long way to go. There are others like me who are more interested in being Christ-like than in trying to force any particular version of Christianity "down everybody's throats".
Is there any more hope left that they could see the error of their ways?
Yes, but not all of them, and not right away. There will always be 'fundies' who seek to destroy in body or spirit (or both) anyone who is not already one of their number.
Has Obama and Hilary's message done any good?
Not much. At least, not among those fundies who believe that Ms. Clinton and Mr. Obama are irrevocably lost and therefore tools of Satan. Most fundies that I know have already decided that any statement released by the current administration is either a package of lies, or a call to sin. Either way, the fundies won't listen -- they just won't "get it". To them, any lie, any act of violence, and any breach of common decency they commit is okay, as long as they do it in "The Name of the Lord".

I voted for Geezer McCain and Caribou Barbie. Yet I cringe whenever I hear a fundie criticize Mr. Obama, mainly because their criticisms are largely unfounded. It's a tough job, every president makes mistakes, and not every president enjoys the full cooperation of Congress and the support of the people.

If I may suggest to the LGBT 'community' (however it defines itself), try advocating for yourselves and each other first. That is, build yourselves up individually, insofar as education and economic success are concerned, and help each other do the same for themselves. Earn your way into positions of authority, where you may exercise greater influence in corporate hiring and political assignments. Work for the overall good of your neighborhood, without regard to any cosmetic factor or subtle hostility -- do good works, and let others see that you care about other people's needs, and not just your own. If someone starts hassling you, walk away. Bullies are not important, no matter how 'holy' they may be.

Fundies will always see you as a threat, even when they smile, shake your hand, and welcome you to their congregations. "Once a sinner, always a sinner" is the unspoken rule, and anyone who has ever been openly 'sinning' (by their definitions) is and always will be a 'sinner'.
 
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Fundies will always see you as a threat, even when they smile, shake your hand, and welcome you to their congregations. "Once a sinner, always a sinner" is the unspoken rule, and anyone who has ever been openly 'sinning' (by their definitions) is and always will be a 'sinner'.

What might help is some high-profile gay prudes. Part of the fundamentalist discomfort with gays is that the community is often perceived as being very permissive about sexuality in general. That makes them uncomfortable even if it's coming from straight people. The perception is not without some basis (ever seen an SF Pride parade?), but it's not really totally representative. There are gay prudes out their. But none of them get much attention, or at least aren't pushing their prudery publicly. Some high-profile gays calling for monogamy, criticizing promiscuity, and advocating abstinence during teenage years and an end to the sexualization of children could do a lot to improve relations between fundy Christians and gays. There doesn't seem to be anybody like that right now, though, or at least not that I've seen.
 
What are doing as a contribution? Are you upoading a video?

I'm planning on doing that.

I just need the right words and the ability of holding my tears back.

Then again, maybe some honest tears would be a good thing.

My ultimate frisbee team's planning one. We're getting footage at our game tomorrow then adding commentary. The team's ~75% gay, but we have a couple tokens of each gender. Ours'll be pretty upbeat, hopefully.
 
As someone in the process of contributing to the project let me just say that, to me, Obama's contribution is NOT welcome. As someone who has gone so far out of his way to continue to enforce the worst of the anti-gay laws in the US such as DOMA and DADT by defending them using the same tired bigoted arguments of the preceding administration even after they lose in court the first time, he's the bully telling us that we're inferior and trying to ensure that it doesn't get better. Mr. "Fierce Advocate" has been a fierce advocate against our rights.

I dunno.

His message surely doesn't make up for the things he has failed to do, but I also think that having the POTUS come out and say "you are valued" is a good thing, a worthwhile thing, something that might make a difference to a bullied kid...and that's the whole point of the IGB project.

So I'm torn. When I saw the clip my first thought was "you don't have a right to post this, you hypocrite" but I think that my first thought was too harsh. He is an inspirational speaker and his words have the power to move people. If his words in this case keep someone alive, that can't be bad.

I know, I know, he's talking out of both sides of his mouth, if you will, saying "you are valued" but at the same time "....so long as you don't try to join the military or get married!"

On the other hand, though, so many people look up to him...the kids I work with ALL do. The teenagers I work with have an abysmal knowledge of politics, but they all know Obama, and all like him...

There's one kid in particular I'm thinking of. He's not out, but he's not someone who can hide. He gets hassled at school--last year he got hassled, all year, by his TEACHER. (The administration did **** -all.) He considers Obama a role model. If Obama's beautiful words (even if all he has for us is words, they're still beautiful) can give this kid hope, I can't work myself up into a lather about his (very real) hypocrisy.

Like I said: I'm torn.
 
What might help is some high-profile gay prudes. Part of the fundamentalist discomfort with gays is that the community is often perceived as being very permissive about sexuality in general. That makes them uncomfortable even if it's coming from straight people. The perception is not without some basis (ever seen an SF Pride parade?), but it's not really totally representative. There are gay prudes out their. But none of them get much attention, or at least aren't pushing their prudery publicly. Some high-profile gays calling for monogamy, criticizing promiscuity, and advocating abstinence during teenage years and an end to the sexualization of children could do a lot to improve relations between fundy Christians and gays. There doesn't seem to be anybody like that right now, though, or at least not that I've seen.

I disagree with you 100%. It wouldn't do anything.

Actually, that's not even accurate: having high-profile gay people criticizing promiscuity or come out in favour of abstinence as the only acceptable teenage option would do active harm.

It would, however, do absolutely nothing to get christian fundamentalists to come around.

...Every once in a while, when a high-profile christian fundamentalist rants about how all gay people are running around the Folsom Street Fair humping each other in a big pile, Dan Savage will post pictures of his crazy gay lifestyle. The last one I recall was baking cookies with his family. So far as I can see, this has converted exactly 0 fundamentalists to his cause.

...Also, lesbians, far from being known for crazy sexual lifestyles, are "known for" jumping into monogamous relationships with each other immediately. (I know it's a stereotype, please don't jump all over me. That's what this argument is about: perceptions about "gay lifestyles" by straight people.) So by your logic fundamentalists should be "comfortable" with lesbians.

As for your hypothetical "high profile gay person who doesn't have a crazy lifestyle or promote one," Rachel Maddow pretty much fits that bill. She's had the same partner (spouse? I can't remember the term she uses) for years. She shows pictures from her vacations and they're all pretty much things like FISHING...how much more "apple pie and mom" can you get?

Or how 'bout the Log Cabin Republicans?

Yeah, I soooo don't buy your argument.


Also, who exactly is in favour of the sexualization of children? (Besides Billy Ray Cyprus...) Is this really something people need to come out against?
 
Maybe I want to be contrarian, or that I view celeb movements with criticism, but I don't really like this.

To start, it is ironic it is started by Savage, who regularly bashes bisexuals and in the opening video attacks small towns.

It doesn't always magically get better after school. As a queer who just left school in the past few years, I can tell you that bullying happens everywhere, people just find less juvenile ways of it. To say otherwise is wishful thinking and not helpful. It reinforces the idea that our happiness is dependent on outside circumstances.

Also, yes, plenty of us are alone. In fact, you can end up more alone after school, because at least there there is a chance of an LGBTQ group. Outside, you pretty much just have The Gay Bar, and don't get me started on that.

And people who commit suicide, and gays in particular, have mental health issues. Platitudes and generic speeches that apply to everyone apply to no one. The videos give nothing to work with for a kid bullied in school anyway. "Your pain right now is inconsequential, in a few years it will all be awesome?"

6. Bar story: vomit. It’s no coincidence that this is the first place where Dan and Terry mention queer space. Codified queer-space, restricted to 21+, w alcohol? Try again.

7. We shouldn’t be talking, we should be listening. Telling our own stories from our incredibly privileged positions, overwrites youth experience.

8. Stories of over-coming adversity: no thank you. Narratives of how life was hard and but now is good, belittle lived pain, imply that a good ending is inevitable, and also undermine the joy and happiness in even bullied kids’ lives.

9. There is actually no path to change in this vision. Promoting the illusion that things just “get better,” enables privileged folks to do nothing and just rely on the imaginary mechanics of the American Dream to fix the world. **** that. How can you tell kids it gets better without having the guts to say how.

10. Then we get a baby and go to Paris? WTF? This is a video for rich kids for whom the only violent part of their life is high school. It’s a video for classist, privileged gay folks who think that telling their stories is the best way to help others. Telling folks that their suffering is normal doesn’t reassure them– it homogenizes their experience. It doesn’t make them feel like part of a bigger community, it makes them feel irrelevant.

Linky

It's all feel good to me.
 
Here's Obama's "It Gets Better" video.

Wow, that looks a lot like a speech I gave my daughter during a period when she was having a really tough time in school. Obama was a lot more eloquent than I was, but all the same themes were there.

The problem I have is giving a good speech was all I could do. I'm not the POTUS. From the POTUS I'd like to see a great speech followed by great action. Or better yet, a great speech following great action. The President has the authority to make real changes for the better, not just make nice speeches about it.
 
All that I'm hoping for with the idea of a prudish gay person admonishing the outré lifestyles of less conservative gay people is this: That non-gay people will eventually have the attitude that gays and non-gays have more in common than not.

I know, it's just a fantasy, but why should people on either side try so hard to flaunt their differences?
 

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