It CAN Happen Here....

[Beerina]

Support was, and is, very heterogeneous. This has the unfortunate consequence of making it much easier to divide and conquer and to lose support. The Bernie Bros are a good example of that IMO.

So is the Republican side. The bulk is made up of two large factions -- social conservatives, and more libertarian economic conservatives. The NRA is a large but smaller group as well.

Speaking of dividing, many blue collar workers broke Republican-side because the Democrats were attempting to divide themselves from them, abandoning them.

"He will not divide us" sounds good, until you realize dividing people is the Democrats' core game plan.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So is the Republican side. The bulk is made up of two large factions -- social conservatives, and more libertarian economic conservatives. The NRA is a large but smaller group as well.

Speaking of dividing, many blue collar workers broke Republican-side because the Democrats were attempting to divide themselves from them, abandoning them.

"He will not divide us" sounds good, until you realize dividing people is the Democrats' core game plan.

As opposed to the republican tactics of bringing people together through hatred of those who are slightly different. That is what wins elections.

 

[Ziggurat]

It CAN Happen Here....

"... the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

This idea that Trump is some sort of incipient fascist doesn't actually withstand elementary scrutiny. For example, one of the biggest policy complaints about Trump is that he's trying to scale back the scope of government power. He has some authoritarian impulses, but he has no real ideology, and real fascism requires that.

But this does not surprise, especially in a thread with this title. After all, the very title of this thread comes from a similarly delusional fictional account of America spiraling into fascism. Sinclair Lewis's work (which even he didn't think was very good) has one of the least believable villains for the role: the Rotarians. If you think fascism will ever come to America by that route, you fundamentally misunderstand the entire phenomenon.

 

[ponderingturtle]

"... the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

This idea that Trump is some sort of incipient fascist doesn't actually withstand elementary scrutiny. For example, one of the biggest policy complaints about Trump is that he's trying to scale back the scope of government power. He has some authoritarian impulses, but he has no real ideology, and real fascism requires that.

Which is why Russia is really a free democracy. I mean sure there is a little state sponsored assassination of dissidents but no real ideology behind the kleptocracy so it doesn't count as anything.

We need to look to Russia for the true future of what america will look like.

 

[Ziggurat]

Which is why Russia is really a free democracy.

A non-sequitor and a straw man rolled into one!

I mean sure there is a little state sponsored assassination of dissidents but no real ideology behind the kleptocracy so it doesn't count as anything.

Sure, it counts as something. It is, as you say, a kleptocracy. It's also a dictatorship. And these are bad things. But no, it's not really fascist. Not everything bad is fascism.

We need to look to Russia for the true future of what america will look like.

Hardly. But here's the thing: except for his boorishness, basically everything that Trump has done wrong is precedented. We were a lot closer to dictatorship under Woodrow Wilson than we are under Trump.

 

[Bob001]

.....
Hardly. But here's the thing: except for his boorishness, basically everything that Trump has done wrong is precedented. We were a lot closer to dictatorship under Woodrow Wilson than we are under Trump.

"Dictatorship" and "fascism" are over-the-top. Trump can't order tanks into the streets. But that doesn't mean that Trump and his acolytes can't move the U.S. to a much more authoritarian environment through entirely legal means. Jeff Sessions wants to expand drug prosecutions and asset "forfeitures" (really seizures), and reduce investigations of voter intimidation and suppression. Betsy Devos is striking at public schools at every opportunity and wants to move education money to for-profit enterprises. Tillerson has devoted his life to making deals with the Russians for oil. The head of the EPA doesn't accept (not a question of "belief") global warming and wants to cut environmental protections. A couple more right-wing Supreme Court justices could turn the legal environment back half-a-century. Etc., etc.

And Trump has to be the most ignorant, most dishonest, most unprincipled, most severely disturbed person ever to sit in the White House. Every other president has had a history of public or military service and has demonstrated basic commitment to American values. This guy would sell us out for a kiss from Putin. In a real sense, we are in circumstances that are unprecedented.

 

[Ziggurat]

"Dictatorship" and "fascism" are over-the-top. Trump can't order tanks into the streets. But that doesn't mean that Trump and his acolytes can't move the U.S. to a much more authoritarian environment through entirely legal means. Jeff Sessions wants to expand drug prosecutions and asset "forfeitures" (really seizures)

I agree, asset forfeiture is bad. But it's not new, and it should have been opposed by the Democrats while they had a majority. Instead, they just ignored it. So while I'm not happy about that, it doesn't shift me towards the Democrats in any way.

and reduce investigations of voter intimidation and suppression.

You mean like Obama did with the New Black Panthers? And if we go back farther, we can find much, much worse.

Betsy Devos is striking at public schools at every opportunity and wants to move education money to for-profit enterprises.

Like I said: the main complaint is that he's reducing the role of government.

Tillerson has devoted his life to making deals with the Russians for oil.

We're screwing the Russians on oil. Expanded domestic production is exactly what they don't want, and breaking their LNG monopoly in Europe severely undercuts them both economically and politically. Which is why the Russians have backed anti-fracking groups in the US.

Watch the coin, not the magician's hand.

The head of the EPA doesn't accept (not a question of "belief") global warming and wants to cut environmental protections.

Once again: the main policy complaint is that he's reducing the role of government. However you feel about that as a policy matter, it doesn't resemble a move towards dictatorship or even authoritarianism.

A couple more right-wing Supreme Court justices could turn the legal environment back half-a-century. Etc., etc.

The biggest potential shift of a few more supreme court justices like Gorsuch is that the Supreme Court might actually reign in the undemocratic power of the administrative state. And that would be good.

And Trump has to be the most ignorant, most dishonest, most unprincipled, most severely disturbed person ever to sit in the White House.

Like I said, he's boorish. But there's been so much hyperbole about this that, well, I just don't care about the complaint anymore.

Every other president has had a history of public or military service and has demonstrated basic commitment to American values.

Did FDR's basic commitment to American values keep him from interning the Japanese? Did Wilson's basic commitment to American values keep him from racially segregating the federal government? And if their actions were part of some basic commitment to American values, what exactly do you imagine those values to be?

This guy would sell us out for a kiss from Putin.

The facts indicate otherwise. Again, what we've actually done lately is hurt Putin's interests, not help them. That we have done so with a smile doesn't change anything.

In a real sense, we are in circumstances that are unprecedented.

No, we are not. This is historical ignorance.

 

[Bob001]

....
Like I said: the main complaint is that he's reducing the role of government.
....
No, we are not. This is historical ignorance.

Great. Everything could be worse. I'll sleep better. I just note that reducing the role of government transfers political, legal and financial power to corporations and the wealthiest families, and the costs of their misconduct -- like environmental damage, lax health and safety standards, employee mistreatment, etc. -- to all of us. If you want to see the Kochs and the Waltons running the country, that truly is the road to fascism.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A non-sequitor and a straw man rolled into one!



Sure, it counts as something. It is, as you say, a kleptocracy. It's also a dictatorship. And these are bad things. But no, it's not really fascist. Not everything bad is fascism.

At least we can't claim that becoming a kleptocratic dictatorship isn't something that can happen here, we know that it can. So we can just pretend that it is only fascism that is a worry dictatorships are of course something that can and will happen here.

 

[ahhell]

Great. Everything could be worse. I'll sleep better. I just note that reducing the role of government transfers political, legal and financial power to corporations and the wealthiest families, and the costs of their misconduct -- like environmental damage, lax health and safety standards, employee mistreatment, etc. -- to all of us. If you want to see the Kochs and the Waltons running the country, that truly is the road to fascism.

Could you describe fascism for me?

 

[Ziggurat]

Great. Everything could be worse.

Not only could it be worse, it has been worse. That's the element missing from so many people's understanding of what's going on.

I'm not asking anyone to be happy or even satisfied with how things are. I'm just asking for a little perspective.

I just note that reducing the role of government transfers political, legal and financial power to corporations and the wealthiest families, and the costs of their misconduct -- like environmental damage, lax health and safety standards, employee mistreatment, etc. -- to all of us.

And the government will always protect you?

If you want to see the Kochs and the Waltons running the country, that truly is the road to fascism.

When I point out historical ignorance, the proper response isn't to double down on it.

 

[Bob001]

....
When I point out historical ignorance, the proper response isn't to double down on it.

Whether power is in the hands of an authoritarian government or unrestrained corporations, the impact on our freedoms is the same, whatever you call it. Gingrich has said his goal is to return the U.S. to the pre-FDR era, and Ryan -- who benefited from federal programs as a college kid -- has said he has dreamed of killing Medicaid since he was a college kid. And now they're running the country. We're headed in the wrong direction.

 

[Ziggurat]

Whether power is in the hands of an authoritarian government or unrestrained corporations, the impact on our freedoms is the same, whatever you call it.

Unrestrained corporations? Those don't exist. Nor are they going to exist. This is silly hyperbole. Actual history shows governments can be far more oppressive than corporations have ever been.

If you want to argue for more government regulations, go ahead and do so on their actual merits. But this chicken little act is just silly.

Gingrich has said his goal is to return the U.S. to the pre-FDR era

That would be sort of the opposite of unprecedented, wouldn't it?

and Ryan -- who benefited from federal programs as a college kid -- has said he has dreamed of killing Medicaid since he was a college kid.

It's not oppression when you don't get the entitlement program you want. And you keep proving me right: the primary policy complaint against Trump is that he wants to reduce the role of government.

And now they're running the country. We're headed in the wrong direction.

Perhaps. But that direction still isn't towards fascism.

 

[ahhell]

Whether power is in the hands of an authoritarian government or unrestrained corporations, the impact on our freedoms is the same, whatever you call it. Gingrich has said his goal is to return the U.S. to the pre-FDR era, and Ryan -- who benefited from federal programs as a college kid -- has said he has dreamed of killing Medicaid since he was a college kid. And now they're running the country. We're headed in the wrong direction.

We were much closer to fascism under FDR and after him than any time prior. I am struck that your definition of fascism seems to be, "policies I don't like".

 

[Bob001]

We were much closer to fascism under FDR and after him than any time prior. I am struck that your definition of fascism seems to be, "policies I don't like".

FDR and after him? What's your definition of fascism?

 

[ahhell]

FDR and after him? What's your definition of fascism?

Authoritarian government with an emphasis on nationalism, means of production nominally stays in the hands of private entities but the state exercises control over the economy, typically instituting wage and price controls and production quotas.