Israel-Palestine: The Solution
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zenith-nadir
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davefoc said:
Since you guys know it "all", and everyone else is "crazy", I suggest you start your own special message board.
davefoc said:
I DON'T CARE what impresses you. Can you get that through your skull.
I don't go around telling people what to write, how to type it, the volume you should write it in and the content of what you write.
Allthough I am beginning to see that that is a common theme at JREF.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Zero said:So, no one is going with my "ice water and porn" solotion?
But that's your solution to everything...
Mycroft
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http://www.immi.gov.au/facts/17nz.htm
Well, it seems that Australia grants citizenship to people who are born there, so it can't be all that uncommon. I haven't checked the other 140 nations in the world yet.
davefoc
Philosopher
I think this idea has been put forward by several people but I'm not sure I have read exactly what is wrong with the idea. Admittedly the idea is simplistic and I am not trying to advocate it, just to ask what's wrong with it.
Israel, unilaterally declares peace.
It pulls back from the occupied territories.
It stops building its wall on disputed territory.
It announces its intent to the Palestinians to complete a wall that surrounds its own territory if terrorist attacks continue.
The US announces a foreign aid package, part of which is used to subsidize Palestinian security forces and the rest of which is used to subsidize the rebuilding of the Palestinian infrastructure and all of which is contingent on the end of terrorism in Israel.
The US announces that it will cease all foreign aid to Israel in a year if any Israeli settlements exist in the occupied territories.
There might be other parts of this package which might include compensating Palestinians who are not allowed the right of return.
Israel, unilaterally declares peace.
It pulls back from the occupied territories.
It stops building its wall on disputed territory.
It announces its intent to the Palestinians to complete a wall that surrounds its own territory if terrorist attacks continue.
The US announces a foreign aid package, part of which is used to subsidize Palestinian security forces and the rest of which is used to subsidize the rebuilding of the Palestinian infrastructure and all of which is contingent on the end of terrorism in Israel.
The US announces that it will cease all foreign aid to Israel in a year if any Israeli settlements exist in the occupied territories.
There might be other parts of this package which might include compensating Palestinians who are not allowed the right of return.
The Fool
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this does not refer to refugees it deals with New Zealanders and thier australian born children... Australia and NZ have specific citizenship agreements. All thier unemployed come here to bgo to the beach and all our unemployed go there to skiMycroft said:
BTW...If a pregnant woman on a tourist visa steps off a plane and gives birth on the tarmac is that baby an american citizen?
from:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/01/1062403450343.html
"Meanwhile a five-year-old girl, born in Australia to asylum seeker parents, has mounted a High Court challenge to laws that say she is not a citizen."
from:http://www.yourrights.org.uk/your-r...zenship,-nationality-and-refugees/index.shtml
"Children born in the UK before 1 January 1983 are automatically British citizens irrespective of the nationality or immigration status of their parents. Children born in the United Kingdom after that date are British citizens only if one parent - or the mother only of a non-marital child - is a British citizen or is settled in the United Kingdom at the time of the birth. Children and young people may apply for British citizenship by application to the Home Office for registration."
The Fool
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Further reading on this topic tells me that America gives an absolute right of citizenship to anyone born on american soil and under the jurstiction of america.....Congratulations, I wish My country was like this. I am still far from convinced that this is the case "in the rest of the world" as ZN claims....It definitely is not in Australia nor in GB...
epepke
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The Fool said:
Probably. Except that we call it asphalt instead of tarmac.
Certainly, if she has gotten through customs. From birth, not at age 10 or some such.
[edited to add] Unless she's on an Indian reservation, which is technically not US soil. And there's a little park in Tampa which is technically Cuban soil; not sure what would happen there.
Mycroft
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epepke said:
I didn't know that about Indian reservations. Are you sure? I mean Indians born on reservations get citizenship.
If I were to go to that Tampa park and buy a hotdog, would I be in violation of that State Department prohibition against spending money in Cuba and go to prison?
Mycroft
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I'm sure the State Department would frown on that. However, it should be legal to move the cigars to the park for storage, and then if something unknown happened to them causing them to be lost somehow...well, that sort of thing happens sometimes.
DanishDynamite
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Well, quite a plethora of possible scenarios. And a minimum of delving into historical justification. Thanks everyone.
It seems to me that a number of these scenarios are workable. They would, however, require the unified determined will of the "world community" to carry out.
Any thoughts on how this could be achieved? What would finally make the world's major players get together and say enough is enough? I mean, most of the world has become immune to the daily suicide bombings followed by retribution. What would it take, beyond the impossible dream of simultanously having enlightened leaders in every country, for this to occur?
It seems to me that a number of these scenarios are workable. They would, however, require the unified determined will of the "world community" to carry out.
Any thoughts on how this could be achieved? What would finally make the world's major players get together and say enough is enough? I mean, most of the world has become immune to the daily suicide bombings followed by retribution. What would it take, beyond the impossible dream of simultanously having enlightened leaders in every country, for this to occur?
rikzilla
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davefoc said:
Oh puhlese!
Z-N, Davefoc is one of Demon's cheerleaders. They've been thick as thieves in their political biases. Sure he feels lucky to have Demon in the forum.....however, I do not....with reason:
<iframe width="100%" height="400" src="http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=380124"></iframe>
Demon is an enemy of authority. He sees people in uniform as inhuman. An utterly despicable, contrarian, creep.
Now, to the question posed by this thread.... easy. You will need to find two leaders who are actually interested in implementing a peaceful solution. Israel has done it before with Begin @ Camp David. The peace with Egypt held. Why? Well not because Sadat loved Israel....but because he was a leader serious about making peace. His reward was death at the hands of Arab terrorists....Al-Qaeda's pre-cursor.
Z-N is correct. That first sentence of the "Road Map" is very telling...and shows very objectively that the Palestinian leadership has no intentions towards peace.
-z
davefoc
Philosopher
DD,
After I wrote my scenario I went back and read through this page of the thread again. It seems like, at least with quite a few of the posters, there was something of a common idea.
That idea is that Israel act unillaterally to begin implementing a plan to remove itself from the occupied territories.
Why won't this happen?
1. ZN is exhibit number one. ZN and others here constantly put forth the idea that all violence needs to cease before Israel can begin to remove itself from the occupied territories. The problem of course is that violence isn't going to cease while it is driven by continued attempts by Israel to expand and to divide up the west bank into little pieces. That is not to say it will cease if Israel abandons its expansion plans, just that this is a necessary step for the beginning of the end of the violence.
2. The US. The US has been mucking about in Israel since the very beginning. It is now accepted lore here that the US actions have been based on some sort of moral imperative and the US has acted for good. People don't like to think that their country has made a grave mistake that has the prospect of having created a situation without any just or peaceful solution. So the US, especially during an election cycle, will continue to push on with its disastrous policies even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they have been largely responsible for the creation of a world destabilzing disaster.
Why peace might happen
I don't know. But the fact is that over time conflicts do end, it's just that some last a very long time.
I think as a younger generation of Israelis comes to grips with the nature of the founding of their country and develops a realistic view about the wrongs committed by both sides there will be more movement in Israel to act unilaterally to end the conflict.
It may be that a wall that was built within the recognized borders of Israel could put a kind of defacto end to the conflict. I understand that the wall built around Gaza seems to be working.
After I wrote my scenario I went back and read through this page of the thread again. It seems like, at least with quite a few of the posters, there was something of a common idea.
That idea is that Israel act unillaterally to begin implementing a plan to remove itself from the occupied territories.
Why won't this happen?
1. ZN is exhibit number one. ZN and others here constantly put forth the idea that all violence needs to cease before Israel can begin to remove itself from the occupied territories. The problem of course is that violence isn't going to cease while it is driven by continued attempts by Israel to expand and to divide up the west bank into little pieces. That is not to say it will cease if Israel abandons its expansion plans, just that this is a necessary step for the beginning of the end of the violence.
2. The US. The US has been mucking about in Israel since the very beginning. It is now accepted lore here that the US actions have been based on some sort of moral imperative and the US has acted for good. People don't like to think that their country has made a grave mistake that has the prospect of having created a situation without any just or peaceful solution. So the US, especially during an election cycle, will continue to push on with its disastrous policies even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they have been largely responsible for the creation of a world destabilzing disaster.
Why peace might happen
I don't know. But the fact is that over time conflicts do end, it's just that some last a very long time.
I think as a younger generation of Israelis comes to grips with the nature of the founding of their country and develops a realistic view about the wrongs committed by both sides there will be more movement in Israel to act unilaterally to end the conflict.
It may be that a wall that was built within the recognized borders of Israel could put a kind of defacto end to the conflict. I understand that the wall built around Gaza seems to be working.
DanishDynamite
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davefoc:
I agree.
While I would hate to be classified as yet another anti-American foreigner, I do think you have a point here.
I think you are right. The question is whether we can wait this long?
I doubt it. It reminds me of the Berlin Wall which didn't stop anything except refugees.
zenith-nadir
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davefoc said:
Settlements don't blow up Palestinian civilians.
Here is a map of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
You can plainly see that the blue Israeli settlements are outside of Palestinian Autonomous Areas and hardly qualify as "expaning and to dividing up the west bank into little pieces. "