Is the Master a fraud?

[SpectorDetector]

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/keen/randi.htm


Sometimes who you believe is almost as important as what you believe.


Obiwan Kenobi ~"Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows it?"

 

[walthrup48]

...That means that Mr. Randi can pick and chose the data at will and decide what to do with it and what verdict to pronounce on it...
...Thus even if Mr. Randi comes to a conclusion different from that reached by his judges...
...Mr. Randi can claim that the judges were fooled...
Randi:In fact, there is no need for any type of subjective arbitration to decide if the tests have been passed or not, the results will be self-evident. “No judging procedure or statistical analysis will be necessary to decide whether or not the claim had been proved. The result would be "obvious for any observer." (http://www.randi.org/jr/03-27-2000.html)

...No matter how potent the published evidence, how incontestable the facts or rigorous the precautions against fraud, the number, qualifications or expertise of the witnesses and investigators, the duration, thoroughness and frequency of their tests or (where statistical evaluation is possible) the astronomical odds against a chance explanation: all must be ignored....
With so much evidence to support the phenomenon, finding a person to pass the challenge should be a simple task, yes?

...Having falsely declared that the eminent parapsychologist Professor Stanley Krippner had agreed to serve on his referee panel...
Randi's response: http://www.randi.org/jr/05-18-2001.html

 

[SpectorDetector]

How can anyone believe someone as deceptive and rude as Mr Randi ? He has shown the Million Dollar hoax to be just that.
He is just as pathetic as the woowoos he debunks.

The Million Dollar Challenge is a farce .

It depends upon controling phenomenon this is not consistant and has never been controled. It is also subjective based upon the examiners views . If I could snap my fingers and make an apparition appear , James Randi and his million would be bottom feeders in the pool of interested parties.

Mr. Randi uses the Million Dollar challenge to market his brand of skeptic garbage to the world with no intention of ever giving up the million. After all , if he had to get up off the money his marketing ploy would be as usless as John Edwards predictions.

The Master is definitly a fraud and those who follow are just as foolish. lol



P.S. Read the entire article and related links , not just what suits your skeptical side.

 

[gnome]

Well we could go through the entire contents about the challenge deficiencies (your article in italics):

Under Article 3, the applicant allows all his test data to be used by the Foundation in any way Mr. Randi may choose. That means that Mr. Randi can pick and chose the data at will and decide what to do with it and what verdict to pronounce on it.

What is done with the test data has nothing to do with the pronouncement of the result.

From the challenge:

In the event that the claimant is successful under the agreed terms and conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of US$1,000,000.

It does not say "if Randi says the claimant is successful." If the claimant succeeds, and Randi declares it a failure... he is breaching the agreement and is open to a lawsuit for the million if the claimant actually did succeed.

Once clear purpose of this clause that I can think of is so that Randi can publish the results, esp. if the claimant makes statements as to what happened that Randi would like to provide evidence to refute.

Under Article 7, the applicant surrenders all rights to legal action against the Foundation, or Mr. Randi, no matter what emotional, professional or financial injury he may consider he has sustained. Thus even if Mr. Randi comes to a conclusion different from that reached by his judges and publicly denounces the test, the applicant would have no redress. The Foundation and Mr. Randi own all the data. Mr. Randi can claim that the judges were fooled. The implicit accusation of fraud would leave the challenger devoid of remedy.

Incorrect also, as this ignores the last statement of Article 7:

This applies to injury, accident, or any other damage of a physical or emotional nature, and/or financial, or professional, loss or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize.

Here he expressly states which damages the claimant is waiving, and specifically excludes the awarding of the prize itself. A claimant who feels that the agreement has been breached has every right to seek remedy in court and has agreed to nothing that waives that right.

First, his rules are confined to a single, live applicant. No matter how potent the published evidence, how incontestable the facts or rigorous the precautions against fraud, the number, qualifications or expertise of the witnesses and investigators, the duration, thoroughness and frequency of their tests or (where statistical evaluation is possible) the astronomical odds against a chance explanation: all must be ignored. Mr. Randi thrusts every case into the bin labelled 'anecdotal' (which means not written down), and thereby believes he may safely avoid any invitation to account for them.

It seems clear to me that if the test is to follow an agreed-upon protocol, that it must be performed after the conditions are agreed on... how is that unfair? Next paragraph, same problem.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

If I could snap my fingers and make an apparition appear . . . .

Originally from a friend's mom
"If buzzards had harmonicas up their asses, there'd be music in the air."

 

[SpectorDetector]

Is that the best you can come up with ? And not even your own remark . Pathetic ;(

"If buzzards had harmonicas up their asses, there'd be music in the air."

"If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle ".




While you address the points of the so-called challenge , you totally ignore the facts about Mr. Randi using the Million Dollar challenge to promote his opinions . Hes a fraud and so is the Million dollar challenge.

If you can manage it without blowing your own mind , reverse your position and take a look at the outline of the challenge . Then ask yourself if James Randi is using the challenge to promote his own nonsense . If you fairly reverse your view , you will see how James Randi is as much an attention whore as John Edward and Sylvia Brown .

If the true nature of a critical thinker is to discover facts through percise calculation , then one can easily see through James Randi as easily as John Edward.



In the words of John Stossel " Give me a break "

 

[Brown]

How can anyone believe someone as deceptive and rude as Mr Randi ?

This question is surely posed rhetorically. Nevertheless, I shall give a straight answer.

As a lawyer might say, the question "presumes facts not in evidence." It presumes that Mr. Randi is (1) deceptive and (2) rude.

Well, as a professional conjuror, it is necessary for Mr. Randi to be deceptive to a degree. If this is the basis for the accusation of being "deceptive," it is certainly laughable. There is no evidence that Mr. Randi is deceptive by nature, nor that he regularly engages in deception as part of non-conjuring activities.

As for being rude, there is little question that Mr. Randi has been brusque and sarcastic, but invariably this reaction is in response to brusqueness, sarcasm or astonishing foolishness on the part of others. If this is the basis for the accusation of being "rude," it is once again laughable. There is no evidence that Mr. Randi is ill-mannered.

It is clear that you have never met the man. I have. He is charming and polite, and very frank in his discussion. He seems to appreciate those qualities in others. He seems to take delight in the advancement of knowledge, and seems to be distressed by displays of stupidity. Although his credibility is excellent, I do not agree with Mr. Randi on every point. My disagreements, however, are based upon the merits of the issues, rather than a comprehensive insult to his truthfulness.

 

[Martin]

How can anyone believe someone as deceptive and rude as Mr Randi ?

As Brown points out, you've yet to demonstrate this deception. As for rude - the Earth isn't flat, you f*cking imbecile.

Now, in what way does my rudeness affect the veracity of my statement? Clearly, it doesn't. You f*cking imbicile

Edited to add: I can't help but notice that your only response to Jim's post was to decry Randi as a liar, and you haven't responded at all to Gnome's detailed post. Why exactly should we take your word for it that Randi isn't trustworthy when you can't even be bothered to defend your claims?

 

[SpectorDetector]

Its not necessary to verify anything to a fool about a fool. Its simply a waste of my time , you wouldnt understand . lol

Read the link and all associated material , if you are able to do so .


You base your entire belief system upon a marketing ploy .


That makes you the dumbass .



You follow the antics of a skeptical version of John Edward . How can any of your remarks be taken seriously .

Actually , the premise that the world is flat was a skeptics creation . Once again you demonstrate dumbass in its purest form .

It must be hard finding out Santa is your daddy in a red suit.

 

[Zep]

 

[Ladewig]

If you fairly reverse your view , you will see how James Randi is as much an attention whore as John Edward and Sylvia Brown .

You base your entire belief system upon a marketing ploy.

Most of us do not base our beliefs on Randi's challenge, statements, or pronouncements. If he were indeed shown to be a fraud, most of us would denounce him and continue our skeptical beliefs.

Second, if it is a marketing ploy, it is perhaps one of the worst marketing ploys in modern times. JVP and JE have television shows; Uri still gets free publicity. Randi hardly gets noticed by mainstream or even alternative media. If he were interested in publicity, he could bend spoons on camera or make images appear on photographic film or run a mind-reading act. He has already demonstrated his abilities to perform these tasks at a professional level.

Third, if it is all marketing, why are arguments against skepticism in general and Randi in particular permitted on this board? On every believer board I've ever seen, any criticism of the board owner results in deletion or banning.

It depends upon controling phenomenon this is not consistant and has never been controled.

Perhaps you could explain why so many ADCers, pet psychics, fortune tellers, past-life regressionists, et al control their abilities well enough to charge hundreds if not thousands of dollars to demonstrate these abilities on demand.

 

[Starrman]

Obiwan Kenobi ~"Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows it [sic]?"

Perhaps you should put some more Star Wars quotes in your arguments. They are very "powerfull indeed"!

You base your entire belief system upon a marketing ploy .

Wow, great argument. I used to be Catholic, now I'm Million-Dollar-Challengeist.

You follow the antics of a skeptical version of John Edward . How can any of your remarks be taken seriously .

Another awesome argument, completely free of presumptions. 'Skeptical version of John Edward' is by far one of the finest oxymorons I've ever encountered.

Actually , the premise that the world is flat was a skeptics creation

Yes, airtight once again. No one ever believed that!

Once again you demonstrate dumbass in its purest form .

I think you meant 'dumbassness'.

It must be hard finding out Santa is your daddy in a red suit.

The meaning of this is so self-evident I will not bother to explain further.

Brilliant - as are all of your posts. I now officially reject my Million-Dollar-Challengeism and accept your world view of Copyshi*fromtheinternetanddontthinkaboutitatallinism.

Oh yeah, and to further solidify your arguments, try this ace;

"Luke, I am your father!" - Darth Vadar. Zing!

 

[Martin]

<rant snipped>

Sorry, was that directed at me? It's hard to tell, seeing as it doesn't actually relate to me or anything I've written. Idiot.

 

[SpectorDetector]

Idiot? LOL

Typical response from a dipsh*t , nolife dumbass whos only human contact is on a message board on the web.

Your obvious irritation over the revelation that James Randi is an attention whore has clouded your ability to form an intelligent response .

Your anger doesnt change the fact that The Million Dollar Challenge is a farce as is James Randi .

You should go buy tickets to the next John Edward telecast and mabey you'll hear from your great granny ( through Mr Edward) what you've suspected all along . You need to get out more and quit being a suspicious , uptight ,anal retentive dipsh*t.


Thanks for your response.

Sorry, was that directed at me? It's hard to tell, seeing as it doesn't actually relate to me or anything I've written. Idiot.

seeing as

By the way, you is an excellent riter .

U seeem tu be huked on foniks .

It wurked fur u
(edited by Lisa for language. Please read the posted rules and FAQ. Thank you)

 

[glee]

From the original link by SpectorDetector:

"Likewise, the production of a spanner bent by a force considerably in excess of the capacity of the strongest man, created at the request and in the presence of a group of mechanics gathered round a racing car at a pit stop by Mr. Randi's long-time enemy, Uri Geller...."

I understand that Mr. Geller is a skilled conjuror. Perhaps such a man could substitute a previously bent spanner.
SpectorDetector, do you think that is possible?

The witnesses to this paranormal feat were a group of motor mechanics in a racing car pit.

SpectorDetector, do you think this counts as 'science'? Are these people ready to spot skilled misdirection? Were they perhaps inclined to be 'entertained'?

Further from the link:

"scientists at Imperial College have tested the spanner, which its current possessor, the researcher and author Guy Lyon Playfair, not unnaturally regards as a permanent paranormal object, and there is a standing challenge to skeptics to explain its appearance."

Wow. 'Scientists' (unnamed, naturally) are 'involved'.
Can we have a cite for their research?
Does Guy Playfair (is he a scientist? does he consider the pit stop demo to be scientifically controlled?) accept my explanation? Do I get any money from him?

Next up:

"when the outcome of the (Gary Schwartz on mediums) experiment proved an overwhelming success...He (Randi) criticised the fact that the Schwartz findings appeared in neither Nature nor Science, although he must have been aware of the long-standing refusal of these two leading scientific journals to publish anything touching on the paranormal."

SpectorDetector, do you think that Nature and Science are engaged in a conspiracy to suppress all paranormal research?
Have you publically exposed them for this appalling lack of scientific bias?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

It depends upon controling phenomenon this is not consistant and has never been controled.

How many times does this lie need to be swatted down?

I'll make it simple for you.

Claimant says they can do A.
Randi says, do you agree to be tested to see if you can do A.
Claimant says yes.
Test ensues.
Test has shown thust far that claimants are indeed doing A via means other than the paranormal.

It's the claimants who are suggesting that their superpowers are consistant and can be controlled. Randi's just letting them (attempt) to show that.

 

[Michael Redman]

SpectorDetector - You truly are stupid (or impressively arrogant) if you believe that your childish criticism is some sort of "revelation". Your first and primary error is that you assume that we see James Randi as a "master" and "believe" in him, and that our position is a faith, as subjective and illogical as yours is. Believers of various type constantly pop in here with this sort of ill reasoned nonsense, find their attacks do no good, and then go off and pout, never to be heard from again. I'm sure you'll soon follow suit.

 

[SpectorDetector]

SpectorDetector - You truly are stupid (or impressively arrogant) if you believe that your childish criticism is some sort of "revelation". Your first and primary error is that you assume that we see James Randi as a "master" and "believe" in him, and that our position is a faith, as subjective and illogical as yours is. Believers of various type constantly pop in here with this sort of ill reasoned nonsense, find their attacks do no good, and then go off and pout, never to be heard from again. I'm sure you'll soon follow suit.

Hey Mikey WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGG again dumbass . Your 0 for 2

I wont go away . Morons like you dont even phase me . I lend your remarks no creedence. You are obviously an idiot.

It's the claimants who are suggesting that their superpowers are consistant and can be controlled. Randi's just letting them (attempt) to show that.

Randi uses them for publicity to spew his own brand of garbage . His hero complex allows him to think that hes actually doing the world a favor by revealing these people as frauds , when the truth is that they were frauds long before he ever met them and graced them with his idiot test.

The Million Dollar challenge is the equal of a carrot held in front of a horses eyes to make him perform.

The Challenge is a marketing game used for the sole purpose of nursing Jimmys hero complex. Anyone who sees it as anything other than that is just plain ignorant.

I understand that Mr. Geller is a skilled conjuror. Perhaps such a man could substitute a previously bent spanner.

Yes , anything is possible .

SpectorDetector, do you think this counts as 'science'? Are these people ready to spot skilled misdirection? Were they perhaps inclined to be 'entertained'?

The premise of the challenge is to perform the task on comand , not to demonstrate scientific proof.

SpectorDetector, do you think that Nature and Science are engaged in a conspiracy to suppress all paranormal research?

No only anal retentive morons who believe in nothing except their own dilusions of grandure .

Anything is possible. History has proven this. Discoveries of new scientific facts are the very thing that has brought us to this point in technology. To simply say things are not possible because they escape conventional belief is ignorant.

 

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/keen/randi.htm


Sometimes who you believe is almost as important as what you believe.


Obiwan Kenobi ~"Who is the more foolish? The fool or the fool that follows it?"

Let me guess...

you read it on the web, so it must be true.

 

[arcticpenguin]

So all these paranormal phenomena won't happen under controlled conditions that would preclude cheating. Let me think about a likely explanation:

1) Unlike gravity or any other natural well-known natural phenomenon, psychic powers really don't work when someone is looking.

2) The claimants are fraudulent or delusional and do not produce under controls because they can't under any circumstances.

Gosh, which is a more likely solution?