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Is Randmoness Possible?

Iacchus

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(ed) Is Randomness Possible?

Wouldn't it make sense to say that randomness is not evident -- if, due to the nature of cause-and-effect -- one thing clearly proceeds from another? Say the way one branch proceeds from another on a tree? There's clearly a connection there, right? So, how else does randomness occur, except to say that things occur out of nowhere, and in effect proceed from nothing? Why is that so hard to grasp? Albeit you would be one not to believe that everything was interconnected then, right?

So, would you care to walk out on your non-existent limb again and demonstrate how you walk on thin air? :D
 
Randomness just means that we can't predict the outcome of an event -- it doesn't mean that the event couldn't, in theory, be predicted; or that there is no cause for the event. It just means that prior to the event occuring, we don't know the outcome.

So, yes, randomness exists.
 
Leif Roar said:
Randomness just means that we can't predict the outcome of an event -- it doesn't mean that the event couldn't, in theory, be predicted; or that there is no cause for the event. It just means that prior to the event occuring, we don't know the outcome.

So, yes, randomness exists.
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I believe you mean the appearance of randomness. In which case I would have to agree.
 
Iacchus said:
I believe you mean the appearance of randomness. In which case I would have to agree.
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No, I mean randomness. It doesn't matter if a phenomena is, in theory, predictable if we can't predict it.
 
Iacchus said:
I believe you mean the appearance of randomness. In which case I would have to agree.
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How would you tell the difference between something which was truly random and something which simply appeared to be random?

Is there even a meaningful difference between the two?
 
Leif Roar said:
No, I mean randomness. It doesn't matter if a phenomena is, in theory, predictable if we can't predict it.
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And when we are able to predict it? Then what? Does that mean it wasn't random after all? You see, you're not making any sense.
 
Iacchus said:
And when we are able to predict it? Then what? Does that mean it wasn't random after all?
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No, it means that events of that type is no longer random.

I have a coin which I'm about to flip, and I ask you to predict the outcome. You've only got a 50% chance of guessing right -- the outcome of the coin-flip is random to you.

I tell you that the coin is loaded, and that it always lands heads up. I once more ask you to predict the outcome. You now got a 100% chance of guessing right, and the outcome is no longer random.

The underlying event, the flipping of the coin, didn't change -- only your ability to predict its outcome. In the first case the outcome was, to you, random (to me it was predetermined,) and in the second case it was not random.
 
Yahweh said:
Is there even a meaningful difference between the two?
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Yes, there is. If randomness truly is possible which, in effect says something can come from nothing (see the orginal post), it helps maintain the theories of evolution and natural selection. If randomness is not possible, then it suggests everything must unfold, hence through the appearance of evolution and natural selection -- again, these are just factors we don't understand -- according to a "pre-set" plan.
 
Leif Roar said:
No, it means that events of that type is no longer random.

I have a coin which I'm about to flip, and I ask you to predict the outcome. You've only got a 50% chance of guessing right -- the outcome of the coin-flip is random to you.

I tell you that the coin is loaded, and that it always lands heads up. I once more ask you to predict the outcome. You now got a 100% chance of guessing right, and the outcome is no longer random.

The underlying event, the flipping of the coin, didn't change -- only your ability to predict its outcome. In the first case the outcome was, to you, random (to me it was predetermined,) and in the second case it was not random.
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And if you flipped a coin in a perfect vacuum -- hmm ... are you listening Mercutio? -- at what point would it stop rotating? :D Obviously any other variables outside of this would be predictable by some means don't you think? ... Not to mention the effects of a perfect vacuum if, it were attainable.
 
Iacchus said:
And when we are able to predict it? Then what? Does that mean it wasn't random after all? You see, you're not making any sense.
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In order to predict anything so simple as the roll of a die perfectly, you would have to be aware of and in fact know every aspect and value of every single variable, which of course, it is impossible to do in the real world (which is where most of us live).

Here is the point where you insert your hypothetical all-knowing entity. As soon as you show some evidence for that entity, I'll give your beliefs some credit. Until then, I advise you to stay away from games of chance.
 
Iacchus said:
And if you flipped a coin in a perfect vacuum -- hmm ... are you listening Mercutio? -- at what point would it stop rotating? :D Obviously any other variables outside of this would be predictable by some means don't you think? ... Not to mention the effects of a perfect vacuum if, it were attainable.
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What you're writing here makes no sense, and is certainly not related in any way to my earlier post,so I fail to understand why you quoted my post as if the above was a reply to it.
 
Leif Roar said:
No, it means that events of that type is no longer random.
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Yes, but to whom?

The underlying event, the flipping of the coin, didn't change -- only your ability to predict its outcome. In the first case the outcome was, to you, random (to me it was predetermined,) and in the second case it was not random.
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Which is to say it wasn't random at all, even if I construed it as such.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, but to whom?
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To whomever is now able to predict the outcome of the event.

Which is to say it wasn't random at all, even if I construed it as such.
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*sighs* No. Random is not an inherit quality of an event -- it is merely a description of your ability to predict the event.

Imagine you're on a gameshow, and get to choose from one of three boxes. Two are empty, one contains $1000. The boxes are open, so you can see where the money are. You choose that box, and get the $1000. The outcome is not random.

Imagine the same situation, but now with a screen between you and the boxes so you can no longer see their contents, however the studio audience can see them. You must now pick one of the three boxes without knowing which one contains the money. You now have only a 1/3 chance of getting the money. The outcome is random.

Note that the outcome is random even though the studio audience knows where the money are.
 
Tricky said:
In order to predict anything so simple as the roll of a die perfectly, you would have to be aware of and in fact know every aspect and value of every single variable, which of course, it is impossible to do in the real world (which is where most of us live).
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Well it's Howdy Doody Time now isn't it? ;)

Here is the point where you insert your hypothetical all-knowing entity. As soon as you show some evidence for that entity, I'll give your beliefs some credit. Until then, I advise you to stay away from games of chance.
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The point is, if there is no such thing as chance -- albeit I don't refute its appearance -- how could this thing called a Universe have been conceived without some all-knowing "entity" or device? Indeed, because it would have been conceived -- or, the knowledge thereof would have been available -- right from the get-go. So, perhaps God "planted" the Universe, very much in the way a seed is planted which grows into a tree?
 
Leif Roar said:
No. Random is not an inherit quality of an event -- it is merely a description of your ability to predict the event.
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I think we'll just have to leave it at that. Thanks.
 
Randomness means lack of pattern, which makes outcomes unpredictable!
A beam splitter in quantum mechanics is a truth random number generator of T, and R, because there is no pattern of Transmitted or Reflected electrons, which can be used to predict if the beam splitter will let the next electron, be transmitted or reflected! Randomness is the hallmark of quantum mechanics!
 
Re: (ed) Is Randomness Possible?

Iacchus said:
Wouldn't it make sense to say that randomness is not evident -- if, due to the nature of cause-and-effect -- one thing clearly proceeds from another? Say the way one branch proceeds from another on a tree? There's clearly a connection there, right? So, how else does randomness occur, except to say that things occur out of nowhere, and in effect proceed from nothing? Why is that so hard to grasp? Albeit you would be one not to believe that everything was interconnected then, right?

So, would you care to walk out on your non-existent limb again and demonstrate how you walk on thin air? :D
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Something from nothing, I suppose that definitions of something and nothing would be needed.

Are you referring to some intelligent designer randomly creating the world out of nothing ?
 
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