Is it possible ... ?

[JWideman]

​

Actually, there's only 1 basic conflict:

"(Wo)Man vs. Threat."​

'Threat' can come from: (Wo)man, Nature, Environment, Machine or Technology, Supernatural, Self, Religion / God(s) or even something as simple as Change.​

The 7 basic plots are: Quest, Odyssey, Rebirth / Redemption, Comedy, Tragedy, Triumph (usually over a monster), and Rags to Riches / Riches to Rags.​

Indeed. Thus the level of refinement I mentioned. That different authors have different viewpoints on the topic of writing, and are quite willing to discuss such at length, is both the cause and result of thoroughly groomed felines.

 

[Loss Leader]

Is it possible to write an original story without resorting to archetypes, clichés, stereotypes or literary tropes? Explain...

The problem begs for Confirmation Bias. No matter what you write, someone will argue that some portion of it fits into some archetype, even if you weren't aware of it.

So, it may be possible. It just may not be possible to get anybody to recognize it.

 

[Fnord]

Possible, then, but not probable ...

 

[gumboot]

​

Actually, there's only 1 basic conflict:

"(Wo)Man vs. Threat."​

I don't agree with that, or at least, I think the bottom is merely a way of expressing "conflict" and doesn't identify a "type".

I prefer the much more sensible construction of three types of conflict;

Interpersonal - conflict between the hero and another character.
Intrapersonal - conflict within the hero.
Environmental - conflict between the hero and their environment.

That covers everything much more succinctly, IMHO.

As for different stories (the fact that the website you linked uses "plot" and "story" interchangeably makes my skin itch), I think practically every writer who has ever expressed an opinion on the topic has come up with their own number of stories and their own explanation for what they are. Frankly I've never been convinced by any of them, particularly as they tend to be so profoundly vague that they're of no use to anyone. As example, in the list you cited they place A Christmas Carol under "Rebirth", yet based on their description it actually fits equally under "Voyage and Return". Likewise, by their descriptions, "Defeating the Monster" is really just a more specified example of "Quest" (in fact "Quest" could apply to virtually any of the others).

This isn't something that's a problem only for that list. The same happens with every list. One thing that seems to be glaringly missing from that site, also, is the romantic story.

 

[Mark6]

I think you need an Act IV:

Boy IS girl.

BAM!

Already done. "All Ye Zombies" by Heinlein.

 

[gumboot]

There's only 7 basic plots (or as many as 36, depending on how refined you want to get):
1. Man vs Woman
2. Man vs Nature
3. Man vs Environment
4. Man vs Machine
5. Man vs Supernatural
6. Man vs Self
7. Man vs God

They're not plots. They're conflicts (I'd argue there's only three types of conflict; interpersonal (1 and 7), intra-personal (6), and environmental (2,3,4 and 5). A plot is a causally linked sequence of events. In fact, plot is probably the one thing about stories that is most typically unique, because two stories very seldom feature the same sequence of events.

 

[Mark6]

I didn't read the whole thread first, so I guess I'll just respond to this separately.
Yes and no. The building blocks to any story are limited in number. There's only 7 basic plots (or as many as 36, depending on how refined you want to get):
1. Man vs Woman
2. Man vs Nature
3. Man vs Environment
4. Man vs Machine
5. Man vs Supernatural
6. Man vs Self
7. Man vs God
No matter what sort of story you tell, it's going to boil down to a permutation of the above.

What if the story has NO man (or woman, or any other human)? I certainly had read those. And while in most of such stories animals, aliens, etc. were substitutes for people, sometimes they are not. Actually, those latter are the stories I value most. I like reading about characters I cannot identify with.

 

[Mark6]

​

Actually, there's only 1 basic conflict:

"(Wo)Man vs. Threat."​

'Threat' can come from: (Wo)man, Nature, Environment, Machine or Technology, Supernatural, Self, Religion / God(s) or even something as simple as Change.​

The 7 basic plots are: Quest, Odyssey, Rebirth / Redemption, Comedy, Tragedy, Triumph (usually over a monster), and Rags to Riches / Riches to Rags.​

Where among these 7 basic plots is Asimov's story "Robbie"?

 

[gumboot]

What if the story has NO man (or woman, or any other human)? I certainly had read those. And while in most of such stories animals, aliens, etc. were substitutes for people, sometimes they are not. Actually, those latter are the stories I value most. I like reading about characters I cannot identify with.

Can you cite an example? Because I don't see how a story could actually work without a protagonist. In fact I would argue that without a protagonist you can't have a story.

 

[Mark6]

Can you cite an example? Because I don't see how a story could actually work without a protagonist. In fact I would argue that without a protagonist you can't have a story.

I did not say "no protagonist". I said protagonist I cannot identify with.

Several of Jack London's stories are written from the viewpoint of dogs or wolves, and they are quite fascinating -- even though any human acting in the manner of these protagonists would have been bug**** psychotic.

Another example is "Kren of Mitchegai" by Leo Frankowski. No humans are involved; the protagonist is an alien, and Mitchegai society is so out of whack from anything we would consider "normal", any human this side of Hannibal Lechter would go insane in it (even if he wore a Mitchegai body). Yet their behavior is determined by their biology much like our behavior is determined by ours, and to them it is completely normal. Again, fascinating (if somewhat horrifying) reading.

 

[gumboot]

I did not say "no protagonist". I said protagonist I cannot identify with.

By definition a protagonist is the character the reader identifies with.

Several of Jack London's stories are written from the viewpoint of dogs or wolves, and they are quite fascinating -- even though any human acting in the manner of these protagonists would have been bug**** psychotic.

Can you name one, please?

 

[Mark6]

"White Fang"[1], "Jerry of the Islands" and "Michael, Brother of Jerry"

[1] I mean original story, not the Disney bowdlerization

 

[gumboot]

"White Fang"[1], "Jerry of the Islands" and "Michael, Brother of Jerry"

[1] I mean original story, not the Disney bowdlerization

I've read both White Fang and Call Of The Wild (haven't read Jerry Of The Islands or Michael, Brother of Jerry) and there's no question in my mind that readers are meant to identify with White Fang and Buck. I know I had no issues identifying with them.

 

[Mark6]

"Jerry of the Islands" is my favorite Jack London novel, and is possibly best ever (certainly best I ever read) portrayal of what it is like to be a dog. But it does not mean I want to be a dog, or could act like one -- even if I were somehow in a dog's body.

It's available online: http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/JerryOfTheIslands/jerry1.html

 

[gumboot]

But it does not mean I want to be a dog, or could act like one -- even if I were somehow in a dog's body.

"Identify with" does not mean "want to be".

 

[Mark6]

I've read both White Fang and Call Of The Wild (haven't read Jerry Of The Islands or Michael, Brother of Jerry) and there's no question in my mind that readers are meant to identify with White Fang and Buck. I know I had no issues identifying with them.

I suppose dogs are close enough to humans that one can identify with them -- although behavior of a subordinate pack mammal is something which today in humans is considered at least neurotic, if not psychotic. In fact, one of the things which fascinate me about "Jerry" is noticing which parts of his personality do map easily onto humans, and which ones do not.

Now that I think of it, White Fang and Buck do have more identifiably human traits than Jerry and Michael -- and IMO are not as realistic as dogs. Which may explain why "White Fang" and "Call of the Wild" are more popular. (Another reason may be because "Jerry" books are blatantly non-PC.)

But there is no freaking way any sane human could identify with "Kren of Mitchegai". And not too surprising, that book did not sell well. But well enough to publish.

 

[gumboot]

Now that I think of it, White Fang and Buck do have more identifiably human traits than Jerry and Michael -- and IMO are not as realistic as dogs. Which may explain why "White Fang" and "Call of the Wild" are more popular. (Another reason may be because "Jerry" books are blatantly non-PC.)

Given that none of us has ever been a dog, there's no way any human can actually know what it's like to be a dog, and therefore cannot determine whether London's representation is accurate or not. Indeed, the very fact that he's writing a narrative renders the entire thing unrealistic as dogs do not have a verbal language and thus cannot have an internal narrative. What London is showing you is a human perception of what it might like to be a dog, and that's where the indentification occurs.

But there is no freaking way any sane human could identify with "Kren of Mitchegai". And not too surprising, that book did not sell well. But well enough to publish.

I 't think the problem with that book is trying to write a story about an antagonist, and it's precisely why such efforts never, ever work (and sell poorly). His publisher is trying to discourage doing such work again, because it's frankly awful.

When I said "you can't have a story without a protagonist" I should have said "you can't have a functioning story without a protagonist".

The oddest thing, to me, about "Kren of Mitchegai" is that Dave Grossman is an expert on the psychology of killing, and is probably one of the best-placed people for making a psychotic evil murderer identifiable, because he work deals precisely with understanding how normal people go that way. That he didn't do this is rather disappointing.

 

[Darth Rotor]

But it does not mean I want to be a dog, or could act like one -- even if I were somehow in a dog's body.

But once you learned how to lick your balls, would you ever leave the house?

 

[uruk]

Nope, power animals and farm tools.

How about animal tools and power farms?
Tool farms and animal power?

How about the farmer"s daugter with a power tool........ for animals?