ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
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But none on the practice of going to little peoples conventions to find mates.
But none on the practice of going to little peoples conventions to find mates.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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"My father used to say that not playing to win is like sleeping with your sister. Sure she's a great piece of tail, with a blouse full of goodies, but... it's just illegal. Then you get into that whole inbred thing. Kids with no teeth who do nothing but play the banjo... eat apple sauce through a straw... pork farm animals."
Topper Harley, Hot Shots
The situation described in the OP sounds unusual, but not implausible; some families are like that, and the neighbors were probably well-advised to stay out of it.
Were these siblings acting in perfect innocence? Hard to say; I suspect not, but: I knew an incestuous family in my village who, apparently, thought little of the rightness or wrongness of their acts. Two brothers, a divorced father, and a sister. Bang! Bang! Bang! every night. I'm afaid that, being only a youngster myself, I took it in stride and assumed that such goings-on were commonplace and even "normal."
Seems I wasn't entirely wrong about that. Seeing as we're citing long-ago studies, I remember something I saw referenced in my late father-in-law's textbook, Man's Place in Nature. (Out of print, but try your college/university library; search under Charles F. Hockett; lots of good reading there; the man couldn't write a dull sentence.) Back in the 1950s, some U.S. investigators searched for incestuous couples living as man and wife -- and easily came up with hundreds. They even found a sibling couple, with children, who were themselves the offspring of a brother-sister union!
The yuk! factor goes up, for me at least, when we uncover something like that. But there are, or appear to be, traditionally incestuous families for whom the taboos simply don't exist. You can google up incest forums that reveal this, if you discount the amount of apparent lying that goes on.
Were these siblings acting in perfect innocence? Hard to say; I suspect not, but: I knew an incestuous family in my village who, apparently, thought little of the rightness or wrongness of their acts. Two brothers, a divorced father, and a sister. Bang! Bang! Bang! every night. I'm afaid that, being only a youngster myself, I took it in stride and assumed that such goings-on were commonplace and even "normal."
Seems I wasn't entirely wrong about that. Seeing as we're citing long-ago studies, I remember something I saw referenced in my late father-in-law's textbook, Man's Place in Nature. (Out of print, but try your college/university library; search under Charles F. Hockett; lots of good reading there; the man couldn't write a dull sentence.) Back in the 1950s, some U.S. investigators searched for incestuous couples living as man and wife -- and easily came up with hundreds. They even found a sibling couple, with children, who were themselves the offspring of a brother-sister union!
The yuk! factor goes up, for me at least, when we uncover something like that. But there are, or appear to be, traditionally incestuous families for whom the taboos simply don't exist. You can google up incest forums that reveal this, if you discount the amount of apparent lying that goes on.
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Inanna, I was just curious, so I hope you don't mind me asking a question or two. If this brother/sister received no support from anyone, how did they get food? Pay taxes/mortgage on the house, and pay the utilities? How did the brother manage to stay in school? (You state he got a job so I assume he had at least somewhat of an education - could read, maybe.) You said that they were very young when they lost their parents so I wondered.
It sounds like a fascinating story. Having struggled with these same things in my life I am naturally curious about how others dealt with it.
It sounds like a fascinating story. Having struggled with these same things in my life I am naturally curious about how others dealt with it.
its just sort of hard for me to think of those kids as a seperate issue because they are products of incest. it seems directly related to how moral it is.
Does anyone think its selfish to have children despite knowing that they will most likely have some sort of genetic problem? im sort of torn on that issue. I guess how likely and what disorder is what makes me frown or not frown upon it. im open to hearing opinions on this for sure.
is there evidence of this? I mean of this being completely biological.
yeah its an advantage, i just am not completely sure its discouraged by genes or not.
I remember seeing a study that said that the source of the incest taboo was seeing your mother care for someone else, regardless of how related you actually were. I will have to go look for it.
like most things, there is probably a combination of nature and nurture.
what? are you serious? if a woman wants to have a kid and doesnt want to have a man help her raise it... what do you think she should do? go cruising for a one night stand? poke holes in condoms? its a lot more honest to just shop for what you want.
and btw are you mad at men for donating their sperm?
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ponderingturtle
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Most likely? They are more likely to have such issues, but the odds are likely well below 50%.
i brought it up as a general question. not specific to incest, but just in general. its something i think is worth exploring.
This is strictly my own opinion...... I find it selfish. I'm even pretty careful about doing this with animals, where it would be perfectly acceptable to "discard" the bad results, and since I value people more than animals, well, I just wouldn't do it.
In my opinion, there are a lot of kids out there with no home, and it would be better to give one of those kids a home than to have a child with a potential genetic disorder that could give the child a life of misery.
I know full well that to some people their own genetics are "sacred", almost, and they think an adopted child just isn't good enough. It happened in my family, to my cousin and her husband...... and after years and years and thousands of dollars this couple spent with no child resulting, they FINALLY adopted. They now have a gorgeous and wonderful child, and I'm very happy they finally gave up. The reason they had so much trouble was genetic, and having a natural child would potentially have passed this trait on. How they could live through their own misery over being childless and not see that passing it on to someone else was a bad idea, is beyond me. I'm really glad they changed their minds. I wish I could say it was care and concern about passing on this trait to a child, but I believe they were only thinking about getting a child any way they could.
ponderingturtle
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It is certainly something for those in higher risk groups for birth defects should consider. And there are many of those that are as bad as incestuous relationships that are not taboo as well.
yeah well... hm now that i think about it the whole thing is for sure going to move into the direction of how much risk is acceptable anyway. i personally do not know much about how often inbreeding in humans damages offspring.
So,none of you are condemning incest or you are ?But I want to know your opinion about the couple I mentioned.Do you have any sympathy for the brother & sister couple I mentioned?(They don't care for our sympathy though)but I still want to know your opinion.
ConspiRaider
Writer of Nothingnesses
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Okay, here's another source (have you heard of the BBC?)
And here is the full article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4688450.stm
Kindly recognize my underlying point, Big Les, would you please? Which is essentially, that when we humans decide to shortcut or temporarily bypass the careful set of balances that Nature has devised over hundreds of millions of years - we should never be surprised at the counterpunches and consequences. What we should do is take a helluva lot more caution. Because poysonally, I don't want to unknowingly marry my half-sister. And if I ever do have a daughter, I don't want guys in their 20s hitting on her when she is 10.
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
Its a difficult question, but one which is primarily for the potential parents to resolve, I think. For example, in my family there is a very strong genetic predisposition to allergies and intolerences and to depression - both unipolar and bipolar. Both of my kids have milk intolerence. I hope they never experience depression, but, while I have thought about it, I never really let it impact on my decision to have kids. I suppose there is a bit of selfishness in my decision, but isn't there in everyone's decision to have children?
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
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Wiki's take on Genesis, 19.
Looks like it's a bit of an old school habit in some circumstances.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Daughters.jpg/400px-Lot_and_his_Daughters.jpg
IIRC, the Catholic Church, some centuries ago, made cosanguinity within the fourth degree against doctrine. I think that means that you have to go out to third cousins to be safe, or maybe fourth cousins.
Since these people aren't looking for sympathy, what's the point of your post? Are you interested in the laws? I think they vary by state. Here in Texas, the law is as follows:
If you want to marry your cousin, you can, but not your stepsister. The adoption thing is interesting, but I think it's to keep the custom consistent.
Who you have sex with is another matter. Adult incest seems to be illegal in most places. Why? Custom would be my guess.
DR
I dont really know. As for them having sex... who cares? It doesnt bother me as long as it wasnt abusive (doesnt sound like it was). the kid and pregnancy is what im trying to work out morally... sooo i dont know about that part at this point.
ConspiRaider
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Are YOU serious?
If a woman wants to have a kid and consciously doesn't want to have a man help her raise it: She needs to get over the entire idea, immediately if not sooner. That mindset makes her unfit as a mother.
Pure selfishness and arrogance - that's what it is. A woman deliberately deciding that a child will NEVER know its birth father. I'd like to be there listening to her try to explain to the kid, especially if he's a boy, why she has no use for men and thought so little of them that they rate no more than a shopping item in a catalog to her. Monstrous. Not human. That is a monstrous attitude, and nothing less. And what else is monstrous? Men jacking off into a jar, getting cash, and that constitutes their association with fatherhood. Absolutely positively monstrous. Yet modern society allows both woman and man to behave in this manner.
As I indicate, in this "You Can Have It All" consumer-driven world we've devised, everything is for sale. "But it's the woman's right to have a kiddie however she wants it!!!" That is what has been marketed to you. What has NOT been marketed to you is the rights of the kiddie. The deliberate elimination of a father in the upbringing of the child. We know that elimination of the father, or the mother, or both, occurs through varied happenstance. War, divorce, abandonment, kidnapping and so forth. But this is different. This is a conscious, thought-out decision to create a child and then deny that child the aspect of "father" as we know it, in the traditional social definition. As we evolved, biologically and socially, to define the parameters of fatherhood.
Because a good father is every bit as critical and important and vital as a good mother in the upbringing of a child. Whether that child is a girl or boy. Your attitude, however, reflects the success by which marketing has been able to minimize a man right down to a 15-second squirt.
And as I mention, it weakens the gene pool. With this new reality, you could end up marrying your half-brother and I could end up marrying my half-sister and we wouldn't even know it. Nature designed a whole set of parameters to try and prevent that from happening. And we shortcut all of those results, honed over hundreds of millions of years, by getting an egg, getting some sperm, mixing 'em in a Petri dish and then implanting it in the woman's womb. Gosh, I'm so proud of us. Aren't we smart? Geez we're just so tremendously clever and smart. Screw Nature. We can do what we want.
Langis
Critical Thinker
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I'm torn on the subject. A piece of me ties a certain "eww" factor to it. And it is something I'd never engage in myself.
But... if two related people (siblings, cousins, whatever) engage in a romantic relationship and it makes them happy, I don't think anybody has the right to judge.
But... if two related people (siblings, cousins, whatever) engage in a romantic relationship and it makes them happy, I don't think anybody has the right to judge.