Is Cannabis Addictive?

[SteveGrenard]

When any mood altering behavior causes people to miss work or screw up thier relationships, it is possibly addictive.

The criminal behavior is a component of drug use, however alocohol is very legal, it is not the DUI aspects that wrecks people lives, it is the overuse of the drug.

What wrecks people's lives is the decrease in role functioning and the drug becoming the dominant relationship in thier lives.

I wonder what constitutes addiction to forum posting and whether this screws up personal relationships. It seems to me that if someone posts tens of thousands of times per year to internet forums they run the risk of damaging relationships as well.

 

[politas]

I wonder what constitutes addiction to forum posting and whether this screws up personal relationships. It seems to me that if someone posts tens of thousands of times per year to internet forums they run the risk of damaging relationships as well.

Strictly, such a thing is not an addiction, but a habit. Habits can be almost as harmful as addictions, but the treatment for a habit is quite different than for a physical addiction. Physical addiction, once broken, is gone forever. Habit-based cravings don't go away anywhere near as easily, which is why AA encourages sufferers to work on the premise that if you are an alcoholic, you are an alcoholic for life.

I suspect that most people who say they are addicted to marijuana are really talking about this "harmful habit" version of addiction, rather than a purely physical addiction.

You can develop a harmful habit about anything - Alcohol, marijuana, ecstasy, masturbation, brushing your hair, forum posting, computer games, etc.

It's when you prioritise a trivial part of your life over an important part of your life that a habit is harmful. If you skip work and lose pay or get fired because you're too busy refuting woos on JREF, then it's definitely a harmful habit.

 

[SteveGrenard]

So you feel that internet forum posting is a habit and not an addiction. I guess you would know if you had a serious problem if you spent five grand for a waterproof laptop so you could keep posting while in the shower.

 

[CFLarsen]

Can interaction with other human beings be called an "addiction"?

Isn't that just being sociable? Something that we normally encourage in people?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Absolutely important to interact with other human beings. Emphasize the words "other human beings" and add "in person" although I can appreciate what you are saying by doing this through this medium as well.

 

[CFLarsen]

Absolutely important to interact with other human beings. Emphasize the words "other human beings" and add "in person" although I can appreciate what you are saying by doing this through this medium as well.

The Internet is just another way of interacting with other people. No need to sound the alarm here.

 

[asthmatic camel]

the link between canabis and mental health problems is pretty well documented. THC seems to act as a "tipping" mechanisism for people who may have some psychotic tendencies, but who, without THC would not go on to develop mental health problems....


http://www.priory.com/psych/cannabis.htm

Yep, that's what happened to my ex. One joint was all it took to send her loopy. She now suffers from full-blown paranoid schizophrenia. It's impossible to know whether this would have happened without the use of cannabis but, it definitely triggered the illness and she's never really recovered.

Sure, alcohol is far more dangerous than cannabis but, it remains the case that cannabis isn't risk-free, as many of its proponents claim.

 

[politas]

So you feel that internet forum posting is a habit and not an addiction. I guess you would know if you had a serious problem if you spent five grand for a waterproof laptop so you could keep posting while in the shower.

I don't believe that there is a predictable physical reaction to being prevented from posting on an internet forum. Any physical reactions that do present must therefore be psychosomatic. Thus, a dependence on such an activity is a mental health problem rather than a physical health problem. Addiction is a physical health problem, usually combined with a mental health problem.

There are measurable, predictable effects on the human body resulting from withdrawal from various substances. Those substances are addictive. Other "addictions" are really habits, and cannot be treated in the same way as physical addiction.

Internet Forum Posting is definitely a habit. It could be a harmful habit, just as going to bars purely for conversation could be a harmful habit if you do it obsessively enough that you lose touch with friends and family and get fired from your job.

 

[Soapy Sam]

So you feel that internet forum posting is a habit and not an addiction. I guess you would know if you had a serious problem if you spent five grand for a waterproof laptop so you could keep posting while in the shower.

You've been doing that Remove Viewing thing again. Just stay out of my bathroom.

 

[luchog]

on an anecdotal level yes.....i've found it addictive - but whether that addiction is;

1) purely psycholgial

2) due to the THC

3) due to the nicotine in the tobacco

Well, since THC has been demonstrated to not produce a tolerance effect, and doesn't act directly on the CNS, it's highly likely that any addiction is purely psychological in nature. Psychological addiction can be as strong as physical addiction, so it definitely shouldn't be discounted.

 

[luchog]

Or to be more precise, without THC might not go on to develop mental health problems. The trouble with these studies is that there is no possible way of controlling them, since we cannot (yet) identify a group of people who should develop a mental health problem under any particular circumstances.

It is entirely possible that cannabis use is a symptom of these people's mental health problems, rather than a cause or catalyst.

The latter has more often been supported when investigating the correllation between cannabis use and mental illness.

The article linked was rather short on hard fact, and rather long on weasel words "the main substance being abused", "There have been suggestions that such people may be the ones who have started Cannabis in their teens"

And my personal favorite "If Cannabis using resumes then the acute symptoms redevelop". In other words, the symptoms do not occur absent of use.

Fact is, all though there is a well-established correllation between cannabis, and other drug, use an mental illness; a causative link has never been established, and there is more support for a determination of "self-medication" being the primary link. I noticed that the article didn't seem to mention anything about the high rate of alcoholism among the mentally ill.

 

[luchog]

Dope doesn't make you crazy it just widens the cracks.

Evidence?

And it is very common for people to self medicate, marijuana is often used by people with anxiety disorders, which is a real problem as it can cause panic attacks and paranoia.

It causes panic attacks and paranoia in some people, not universally. In others, it does just the opposite. There is a good chance that it may be a something more along the lines of a paradoxical reaction; much like treating true ADD with stimulants produces a paradoxical reaction. By your logic, treating ADD with stimulants is bad because they're already overactive and unfocused.

I do not advocate any self medication.

Self-medication is the only thing keeping me functional right now, since none of the doctors I have seen have managed to do me the slightest bit of good.

 

[luchog]

Yep, that's what happened to my ex. One joint was all it took to send her loopy. She now suffers from full-blown paranoid schizophrenia. It's impossible to know whether this would have happened without the use of cannabis but, it definitely triggered the illness and she's never really recovered..

I have a (now deceased) uncle who was a severe schizophrenic. Most of the family blames his drug use using the same logic. He was perfectly normal before he started using the drugs in his late teens, and became a raving looney when he started using them, therefore it was the drugs that caused it. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

There are two things wrong with that claim. 1) The time he started using the drugs was roughly the same time that schizophrenia symptoms typically begin to manifest, so there's a coincidental link. 2) Despite what the family claims, he wasn't normal prior to his drug use. His work (he was an artist) began to show characteristics common to the early stages of onset of some forms of schizophrenia. 3) Schizophrenics are notorious for their tendency to self-medicate beginning with acute onset of symptoms.

 

[epepke]

This is why nobody with the possible exception of stoners uses the term "addictive" any more except informally and roughly. It is almost impossible to tell "true addiction" from something else. The distinction is practically meaningless.

Intelligent people would ask whether it is possible to become dependent upon cannabis. The answer to this is fairly obviously "yes." One can become dependent upon cannabis in a way that people can't become dependent upon root beer or falafel. One can crave or miss root beer or falafel, but withdrawal doesn't cause systemic personality changes. Withdrawal from cannabis (or nicotine or alcohol or even caffeine) can. Not for everybody. I was able to go from about 14 cups of coffee a day to no caffeine, and it didn't cause any personality changes. However, many people have them. Many people get migraines if they don't have caffeine.

Many people become schmucks when they don't get their dope. I've known people who couldn't go 30 waking minutes without a hit without becoming extremely agitated and even violent. It's just as valid to declare that a kind of withdrawal as it is to do so with nicotine.

Comparing it to benzodiazepines is also obviously stupid. Benzodiazepines have some of the most severe withdrawal symptoms. It's unlikely that one will die from benzodiazepine withdrawal, but the symptoms are severe. Declaring cannabis withdrawal trivial because it does not meet benzodiazepine standards is like declaring having your legs broken trivial because it is not the same as being at ground zero when a nuclear warhead is set off. Hardly anything is as bad a severe benzo withdrawal, and that includes herion withdrawal.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Strictly, such a thing is not an addiction, but a habit.

I agree with what you're saying, but I prefer the word "compulsion". When it takes over your life, it's more than just a habit.

One of them was my ex-fiance, once a charming, beautiful little creature, now a bit of a cabbage.

You mean your ex-fiancee. You had me confused for a bit, especially since you now have females as your avatar.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The main problem with requiring physical withdrawl is that it ignores the other cluster of things required for addiction,

some but not all should be present

-stated desire to quit but unable to do so
-multiple efforts to quit or limit use
-overuse , in that more is ingested than desired many times
-tolerance
-preoccupation of time spent aquiring, using or recovering from use
-*** use is detrimental to work and social relationships***
-***use continues despite major negative consequences to use***
-***substance becomes the dominant relationship in person's life***
.

I have been running recording studios all my adult life, and I guess it makes me no more knowledgeable about the subject than say a bartender knows about alcohol, but Ill put my 2 cents in anyhow

all of these statements above seem to apply just fine

Hard to really say though, its only been the last ten years or so where it REALLY got nuts. I mean some of these bands are PERMANENTLY dosed. Its all over the culture, and their culture is dependant on it. The jargon, the clothes, even the time of day 4:20. It is such a dominating factor in thier lives its really frightening

If computers hadnt come into the recording equation lately to fix the poor, lazy , sloppy performance of these types, the whole music we listen to now would sound a LOT different

I used to be fine with it, but then we had working bands, guys with jobs, or people who could play well, or at least know which song they were recording at the time. But to see a band go through a GARBAGE bag full in one session and have that not be uncommon?

I know it causes more billable hours, but then that cuts into their pot money and these types are usually a lot less likely to pay.
Ahhh just ranting

 

[epepke]

I have been running recording studios all my adult life, and I guess it makes me no more knowledgeable about the subject than say a bartender knows about alcohol, but Ill put my 2 cents in anyhow

all of these statements above seem to apply just fine

Hard to really say though, its only been the last ten years or so where it REALLY got nuts. I mean some of these bands are PERMANENTLY dosed. Its all over the culture, and their culture is dependant on it. The jargon, the clothes, even the time of day 4:20. It is such a dominating factor in thier lives its really frightening

If computers hadnt come into the recording equation lately to fix the poor, lazy , sloppy performance of these types, the whole music we listen to now would sound a LOT different

I used to be fine with it, but then we had working bands, guys with jobs, or people who could play well, or at least know which song they were recording at the time. But to see a band go through a GARBAGE bag full in one session and have that not be uncommon?

I know it causes more billable hours, but then that cuts into their pot money and these types are usually a lot less likely to pay.
Ahhh just ranting

Thanks for that, and I think you're right.

This is hard to say, but I remembered another dope fiend of my acquaintance. I won't get into too much detail, because I think he's on this forum. Anyway, there is a drive that he does occasionally that is about 45 minutes long. He doesn't do that drive a lot. I've done a 5-hour drive to help out people who are more his responsibility. Now, I smoke cigarettes, but it isn't a hardship for me to go for 5 hours without a cigarette. Or even four or five days. I just like to smoke when I can. Anyway, during the aforementioned 45-minute drive, he smokes dope. Trouble is that he has two children, one about 4, and one about 1 or 2, and they travel with him.

I'm not a very moral or moralistic person. I'm a civil libertarian. I think that cannabis and most other drugs should be legal for adults, with the possible exception of chemotherapy agents. I think that bars and pubs should not be prevented from allowing smoking. I'm a swinger. I don't have anything against cannabis, except that I don't like it, but that's just my preference. If I got anything positive from it, I'd probably be smoking it today, as I like to smoke.

However, I think that anyone who smokes anything in an enclosed space with children deserves to be worked over with a cattle prod, but then only if a neon sign transformer is not available.

He seems to hate me, though he's known me for two decades. This always used to bother me. Since I found out about his behavior, it doesn't bother me any more.

In any event, if you can't refrain from lighting up for a measley 45 minutes in the presence of your own children, you are as dependent on the substance as much as any heroin addict who has to shoot up regularly.

I fully expect the stoners here to wring their hands and shriek and say that such a thing is impossible, or that cannabis is a totally benign "herb," or that it isn't True Addiction^TM. But it's all the name of the Penn and Teller show that I am prohibited from typing here. You know it. I know it. Even they probably know it and would be willing to admit it except for the fact that they voluntarily put that stuff into their bodies and are so dedicated to doing it that they can't be honest.

 

[hellaeon]

personally - I gave up 8 years back because I was sick of feeling like crap.
I spent 10 years being stoned and working crap jobs complaining about the world. In 8 years since I work full time as a programmer, study part time, work ont he side and successfully fit in social events and 2 bands - which control a lot of my social life.

Weed on an abusive level for me and for what I see in others changes social behaviour, social effort, personal drive and peoples ambitions.

Cheers

 

[Strider1974]

The so called 'cannabis withdrawal syndrome' would have to be almost purely psychological.
I have never heard of, or experienced, any withdrawal symptoms associated with smoking pot that couldn't be easily explained as a psychological symptom. With alcohol, meth, heroin and even nicotine the withdrawal symptoms are readily apparent and it is obvious as a withdrawal symptom.

 

[skoob]

The main problem with requiring physical withdrawl is that it ignores the other cluster of things required for addiction,

some but not all should be present

-stated desire to quit but unable to do so
-multiple efforts to quit or limit use
-overuse , in that more is ingested than desired many times
-tolerance
-preoccupation of time spent aquiring, using or recovering from use
-*** use is detrimental to work and social relationships***
-***use continues despite major negative consequences to use***
-***substance becomes the dominant relationship in person's life***


These are the criteria I usualy use to determine if a person appears to have a dependancy issue on a substance, there are others in the DSM-IV, but the last three are the key, and I have met people who claim to be addicted to marijuana.

People get addicted to all kinds of stuff: food, sex, chocolate, biting on fingernails, watching TV, exercising, work, Internet forums... Any activity that gives a person some sort of pleasure or satisfaction can cause an addiction. People (some more than others) have a tendency to get obsessed by things, and sometimes they spend an unhealthy amount of their time and/or money on their obsessions, to a degree where it starts causing all sorts of problems.

There's no doubt that there are stoners who spend far to much of their time and money getting high and that their obsession causes problems in their lives. The question is, is there anything special with cannabis that makes cannabis addiction worse than, say food addiction?