Ionization

[Eos of the Eons]

Okay, I understand that atoms can lose an electron to become positively charge, or gain an electron to become negatively charges. That is ionization.

Um, so, uh...

Why would anyone do this? What does ionization do to an atom? What does it take to ionize anything? How long does ionization last?

Every website I go to explains the process, but not the result. So, you have this ionized solution... then what?

Of course, the woo sites say a magnetic field is created, or that an ionized solution can suck toxins outta you, but uh, yeah, sure it can.

So, I need a real education on this. Please help,

Eos

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I have another question on this... once something has become a cation or an anion, what happens exactly.. does it look for free electrons or to give away electrons to other of the same atoms that are missing electrons or have extra electrons?

 

[Schneibster]

Let me see if I can help. I can give you some general information, and answer some of your questions, but it would help to know more about what exact ionic effect you're curious about, so if you could expand on that, it would help me give you more relevant answers.

Okay, I understand that atoms can lose an electron to become positively charge, or gain an electron to become negatively charges. That is ionization.

Correct. Actually, more than one electron can be gained or lost, but that's not as common since it requires a stronger influence.

Why would anyone do this?

Ionized gases conduct electricity better than non-ionized ones would be one reason. Also, when salts go into solution in water, they generally are considered to be ionized in solution, that is, for example, table salt dissociates into Cl+ and Na- ions, with the sodium atom gaining an electron and the chlorine atom losing one. The presence of these ions makes water a better conductor, among other changes in its properties.

What does ionization do to an atom?

You've already noted that; it gives it a positive or negative net charge.

What does it take to ionize anything?

There are various ways that ions are formed. In gases, these ways generally involve electricity. When many materials go into solution, they form ions in the solution. There are other ways ions can be formed, but these are the main ones.

How long does ionization last?

Until the extra electron is shed, or the missing electron replaced. How easily that happens depends upon the environment.

Every website I go to explains the process, but not the result. So, you have this ionized solution... then what?

That depends upon surrounding circumstances. I could provide more information if you'd be more specific about the source of the question.

Of course, the woo sites say a magnetic field is created, or that an ionized solution can suck toxins outta you, but uh, yeah, sure it can.

No, an electric field is created, not a magnetic one. Of course, if there are relativistic charged particles around, then they might interact magnetically, but that would only be from their point of view.

As far as "sucking toxins," it's possible- but it depends upon the circumstances. Such a claim would need to be evaluated chemically to see if it makes sense.

So, I need a real education on this. Please help,

Eos

Hope that helps- if you have more questions, give some more information about the application you're studying and I'll see if I can come up with some more answers.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Okay, so I'm starting to figure out what I've forgotten about beginner chemistry.

In chemical compounds, the positive ion is always written first: the number of positive and negative ions should balance.

Um, okay, so how much energy is required to break apart something like NaCl then?

In footbaths (the topic I'm currently debunking), we have iron electrodes in a machine that are hooked up to a low voltage/amperage AC to DC transformer.

When the machine is turned on, you get rust plus hydrogen and chloride gas.

The woos claim the machines are ionizing the water to draw toxins from you. One site claims:

“Ions are charged atoms that have gained or lost an electron which causes them to set up a magnetic field capable of attracting and neutralizing oppositely charged particles and pulling them out of the body through a process called osmosis.”

This claim is basically saying ionization creates a magnetic field to pull metals out of you. I'm pretty sure that is not true... why would it create a magnetic field?

What is actually happening is elecrolysis, that's all I know for sure. You have salt water, an electrical current, and iron electrodes.

Is there any ionization? If there was, what would the actual result be?

I'm thinking there would just be an exchange of bonds between the salt, and that's it. Am I even close?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Thank you for your help so far Schneibster...

So far all I have is:

If you put salt in water, you do get some ionization because... , but the result actually is...

because why and is what? My ignorance on this is so frustrating

I'm thinking the ions don't do much at all, and especially don't suck metals out of your body because... they are busy doing what when involved in the foot bath? Being turned into chloride gas? What happens to the sodium left behind?

table salt dissociates into Cl+ and Na- ions, with the sodium atom gaining an electron and the chlorine atom losing one.

Why does salt become ionized in water? Why does it dissociate? Does water interfere with bonds? Not much energy is needed then hey?

 

[Schneibster]

I have another question on this... once something has become a cation or an anion, what happens exactly.. does it look for free electrons or to give away electrons to other of the same atoms that are missing electrons or have extra electrons?

A cation has a missing electron; an anion has an extra one. In my simple salt water example, the sodium ions would be anions, and the chloride ions cations.

In a solution, the anions and cations are not much motivated to recombine; the reality of the interactions is much more complex than that, there's a lot going on, but it's probably not what you're interested in. If the solution is allowed to evaporate, the anions and cations will recombine into the original solute, that is, if you allow salt water to evaporate, the salt will precipitate out as crystals.

 

[Mojo]

In footbaths (the topic I'm currently debunking), we have iron electrodes in a machine that are hooked up to a low voltage/amperage AC to DC transformer.

Ben Goldacre covered this a few years back: http://www.badscience.net/?p=134

 

[Eos of the Eons]

there's a lot going on, but it's probably not what you're interested in.

yep yep, it's what I'm interested in, because the explanation will also show what is NOT going on (toxins or other heavy metals NOT being attracted to them).

I'm all ears! Please do tell.

In a solution, the anions and cations are not much motivated to recombine

Are they motivated to do anything else? Why do they become anions and cations in water?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Ben Goldacre covered this a few years back: http://www.badscience.net/?p=134

Yeah, but it doesn't explain or debunk the ionization at all. That is what i'm trying to debunk.

I have some more clues I found on another site:

“Hydrogen and chlorine gas is given off in this process. The oxygen atoms from the water combine in the liquid with the salt (added to water to improve conductivity) to form hydroxyl ions. The chlorine gas is from the chloride in the salt. The oxygen in the hydroxyl ions stay in the solution

When you add the electrical current and iron, you get the predicted chemical reaction. I believe the ionization is allowing some of this, by increasing the conduction of the electricity and freeing up the bond between the sodium and chloride.

I just need this explained in a way that shows what the ionization actually causes. There is ionization, just not in a way that will cause any type of "toxin" to be attracted to the ions.

 

[fagin]

I seems to remember there was an item on this in one of Randi's fairly recent newsletters.
Seems you get the same result, with or without feet.

 

[flume]

A cation has a missing electron; an anion has an extra one. In my simple salt water example, the sodium ions would be anions, and the chloride ions cations.

Wait - think you have that backwards. Na+ is the cation; Cl- is the anion.
sodium is more stable in solution as an ion than it would be as the original sodium atom.

A chemist can answer this better, but sodium is has an electron that is easy to give up so that it is in a more stable configuration, and chlorine has an spot where it could gain an electron so that it would be in a more stable configuration. When you have salt crystals, they are already ionized; they are bound together by ionic binds - by the attraction between the extra electrode on the chloride to the extra proton on the sodium.

 

[Madalch]

Okay, so I'm starting to figure out what I've forgotten about beginner chemistry.

In chemical compounds, the positive ion is always written first: the number of positive and negative ions should balance.

The total -charge- will balance. So i you have something like calcium chloride, with calcium being +2, and each chloride being -1, the formula will be CaCl2.

Um, okay, so how much energy is required to break apart something like NaCl then?

Breaking it down into what? Breaking it into aqueous sodium and chloride ions takes very little energy- just add water. Breaking it into gas-phase ions takes a heck of a lot of energy; breaking it into metallic sodium and chlorine gas requires even more.

When the machine is turned on, you get rust plus hydrogen and chloride gas.

You actually won't get any chlorine gas- chlorine shouldn't be forming on an iron electrode, since the iron is easier to oxidize than the chloride ions. You will get rust and hydrogen given off, though.

The woos claim the machines are ionizing the water to draw toxins from you.

Nonsense. Water will ionize very slightly (into H+ and OH- ions), regardless of what currents are running through it. The salt is ionized as soon as you put it in the water.

One site claims:
“Ions are charged atoms that have gained or lost an electron which causes them to set up a magnetic field capable of attracting and neutralizing oppositely charged particles and pulling them out of the body through a process called osmosis.”

Again, nonsense. Ions will attract ions of opposite charge (which is why ionic compounds stay together), but not when they're dissolved in an extremely polar solvent like water. Otherwise, they wouldn't dissolve.

I'm thinking there would just be an exchange of bonds between the salt, and that's it. Am I even close?

No exchange of bonds- the only reaction occuring is the breakdown of the water and the electrodes (the salt itself only allows the water to conduct- you could get the same results with nearly any ionic compound).

Overall reaction: 3 H2O + Fe --> Fe(OH)3(s) + 3/2 H2(g)

As a chemist and fellow Albertan, I invite you to email me with any chemistry questions you don't want to post on the forum.

 

[The Man]

Reduction and Oxidation can both result in Ionization. Reduction is name used when an atom gains an electron, because of the reduction in the total positive charge. Oxidation is the name used when an atom loses an electron, this is due to the Electro negativity of oxygen which, in its monatomic state, can rip electrons from most other elements. An ion is simply an atom with an overall net charge, more protons then electrons = + ion, more electrons then protons = - ion. Fire is the most common Reduction - Oxidation reaction we normally encounter.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

oooo, new term, polarized! Cool. I'm emailing you the rest of the question... er the whole article maybe... if you have time to help... he he

Thank you Madalch!

 

[Mojo]

Why does salt become ionized in water? Why does it dissociate? Does water interfere with bonds? Not much energy is needed then hey?

The sodium and chlorine atoms are ionized whether the salt is in solution or a salt crystal - otherwise you would just have a (rather short-lived!) mixture of sodium and chlorine. Salt dissolves easily in water because the hydrogen-oxygen bonds in the water molecules are polar: they have a slight positive charge at the hydrogen end and a slight negative charge at the oxygen end. the "V" shape of the water molecule means that the whole molecule is also polar. The small positive and negative charges on the water molecules cause what is called "hydrogen bonds" between water molecules: they mean that they attract each other (this is why water is a liquid at room temperature and not a gas), and they also attract the sodium and chlorine ions.

There aren't really bonds between sodium and chlorine ions in the same way as there are (covalent) bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms within water molecules. It's more a question of electrostatic attraction between oppositely charged ions.

By the way, hydrogen bonds are sometimes touted by homoeopaths as providing a mechanism for "the memory of water". Unfortunately, they are far too short-lived for them to enable water to remember anything for more than a very small fraction of a second.

 

[marting]

The degree to which compounds disassociate (ionize) is discussed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_constant#Acid_base_reactions

For instance, water tends to disassociate and recombine such that there are about 7 orders of magnitude difference between the concentration of H2O and H+ OH- Acids and bases simply shift the concentration of H+ relative to OH-, the product of the two remaining relatively constant.

As for gases, they are typically ionized by a sufficient voltage gradient or a beta or alpha emitter. Po210 is commonly used for this (when not being used for state assassinations). A single alpha can go an inch in air and produce millions of ion pairs along the way. Most recombine quickly but there is some diffusion as well and the slightly conductive cloud can rapidly drain off static electicity many inches away.

 

[Madalch]

I'm all ears! Please do tell. Are they motivated to do anything else? Why do they become anions and cations in water?

Water has a very high dielectric constant- this greatly reduces the attraction one charge has for another one when immersed in water.

Also, because water is very polar, the negative sides of the water molecule surround the cations, and the positive ends of the water molecules surround the anions. Each ion is more strongly attracted to the six or so water molecules that will surround it in solution than to the ions that would surround it in the crystal (mostly because it would have to share the attentions of the other ions with other ions like itself).

When you put an electric charge through water, there will be some ion flow, because electrons themselves won't flow through water, and the charge can only move through the movement of ions. But you're not going to build up any net charge in any part of the solution, which is what would be required to pull ions out of anything.

 

[Schneibster]

Um, okay, so how much energy is required to break apart something like NaCl then?

Hmmm, well, not much- you can do it just by dissolving salt in water. You'll notice that the water doesn't get much hotter or colder, indicating that if any energy was produced or consumed, it wasn't enough to make a big difference in the temperature.

In footbaths (the topic I'm currently debunking), we have iron electrodes in a machine that are hooked up to a low voltage/amperage AC to DC transformer.

OK. DC electricity pushes electrons into the solution from the negative electrode, and pulls them out at the positive electrode. Depending on what's dissolved in the solution, cations of the solute will be attracted to the negative electrode, have their charges nullified by capturing the extra electrons, and may remain in solution, or escape as a gas, or combine with the material of the electrode. Anions will be attracted to the positive electrode, and have their extra electrons stripped off, with similar results, again depending on the solute and the solvent.

When the machine is turned on, you get rust plus hydrogen and chloride gas.

Assuming it's a table salt solution, this is more or less correct. The chlorine gas will form at the anode, which is the positive electrode, because the chloride ions will be attracted to it, and gain their electrons back, and bubble out of solution. Sodium will form at the cathode, probably plating onto it. Hydrogen and oxygen will also be formed, separated from the water. The oxygen will mostly combine with the electrodes and form rust, since they are iron; the hydrogen will mostly bubble out. It's worth noting that breathing chlorine gas is contra-indicated. I don't believe I'd care to be in a closed room with such a device unless the chlorine were vented off, and the hydrogen is presumably an explosion hazard, though there are probably limits to the system that prevent much from being made as otherwise they'd have all sorts of safety hazard problems with various regulatory agencies.

The woos claim the machines are ionizing the water to draw toxins from you.

Of course they do. What's really happening is you're being exposed to chlorine gas, not a really great idea. Probably not a big deal in small quantities; chlorine is dissolved in swimming pool water to prevent bacterial growth, and in low doses it's not much of a problem for people. Still, why take a chance without a proven benefit?

One site claims:

“Ions are charged atoms that have gained or lost an electron which causes them to set up a magnetic field capable of attracting and neutralizing oppositely charged particles and pulling them out of the body through a process called osmosis.”

This claim is basically saying ionization creates a magnetic field to pull metals out of you. I'm pretty sure that is not true... why would it create a magnetic field?

This is typical woo gobbledygook. Ions don't "set up a magnetic field." Toxins aren't necessarily either positively or negatively charged. And none of this has anything to do with osmosis.

Osmosis is caused by solutions that contain molecules of solute that are much larger than the molecules of the solvent, on either side of a barrier that has holes in it large enough for the solvent to get through, but not large enough for the solute to get through. If the solvent is present on both sides, but the solute only on one, then whenever a molecule of the solvent tries to get through the holes, if it's coming from the side with the solute, the solute blocks the holes up, but if it's coming from the side without solute, it can bump past the blocking solute molecules and enter the solution. As a result, molecules are more likely to enter the solution than leave it, and this sets up a pressure differential between the sides of the barrier. There is no reason to believe that sodium, chloride, or iron ions could set up such a situation across the barrier of human skin, and if they could, all that would be "sucked out" would be water.

What is actually happening is elecrolysis, that's all I know for sure. You have salt water, an electrical current, and iron electrodes. Is there any ionization?

When you put the salt into the water, the sodium and chloride ions formed when the salt went into solution. That's all the ionization; it has nothing to do with the electrolysis.

If there was, what would the actual result be?

Salt water. Heh.

I'm thinking there would just be an exchange of bonds between the salt, and that's it. Am I even close?

See above. Chlorine will bubble from one electrode, and one electrode will have rust form on the iron. That's about it.

Basically meaningless as far as any therapeutic effect. Pure unadulterated woo.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Reduction and Oxidation can both result in Ionization. Reduction is name used when an atom gains an electron, because of the reduction in the total positive charge. Oxidation is the name used when an atom loses an electron, this is due to the Electro negativity of oxygen which, in its monatomic state, can rip electrons from most other elements. An ion is simply an atom with an overall net charge, more protons then electrons = + ion, more electrons then protons = - ion. Fire is the most common Reduction - Oxidation reaction we normally encounter.

Aha, I think my pea brain is actually getting a clue here. The ionization is causing the oxidation... the iron is being oxidized.

So, nothing is going to happen to your body. It's all external. The ionization is resulting in the oxidation (rusting) of the iron, and that is it.

The freed up ions are oxidizing the iron how exactly? Can anyone explain that process in detail in layman's terms... I can try as well
3 H2O + Fe --> Fe(OH)3(s) + 3/2 H2(g)

Water and iron makes iron color the water and hydrogen gas.

We have water and iron, and an electrical charge enhanced by the ionization of the salt. Does this enhanced electrical charge speed up the rusting of the iron? By how much? Or is that all? Why bother with the salt, is there an action of the Na or Cl on the iron electrode?

now attempting to wrap mind around Mojo's, Madalch's, schneibster's posts above...

 

[Schneibster]

Yeah, I prolly got cations and anions backwards- I usually do. With a real chemist present, I'll bow out unless you want to dig deeper into the physics of the situation.